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Lakea
07-25-2008, 11:53 PM
I don't know all the aquarium posts I have looked through and seen such large fish in such cramped quarters got me to thinking about fish growth and the old myth that 'fish grow to be the size of the container'. Obviously that is not always true and it is usually a death sentence for fish.

I don't know how many oscars I have seen in 10 gallon aquarium, or people putting schools of bala sharks in a 20 gallon, and common plecos (though I have never seen a stunted one) are just tossed into any size aquarium. I don't know how often I have stepped into wal mart and some person is buying a bowl kit (probably 1 gallon) for a goldfish along with a 2 inch fish. Or a recent episode I heard of where a wal mart was selling angel fish in a CUP *dies*. And not to mention all these new betta set ups, they look neat but only offer about a cup of water for the fish.

But I don't like bowls anyways, not a big fan of the bettas set ups either, or the cups they live in (but angel fish in a cup is just so wrong in so many ways). I think fish need filters,heaters, oxygen and room to swim. Really I think it is important that a fish has room to turn around, I don't like seeing 14 inch fish in a 55g that is only 12 inch width.

Anyways, I know fish stunting affects the organs and can lead to very serious damage and eventually the early death of a fish. Goldfish can live to like 20 years, but I bet most people have never kept a goldfish for for more than year or so before it dies.

Fish stunting is usually caused by environment, poor water conditions, even in a larger tank can stunt a fish, nutritional deficiencies due to poor diet, over crowding in a tank. I bet an oscar could grow to it's full size in a 10 gallon if the water is really really clean, but that is just cruel.

but what is the 'non growth hormone' I hear so much about. I have heard in the wild that larger more dominant fish can release a hormone that will keep smaller fish from growing (though I have not found anything on the internets about it, maybe someone else can help). In the wild that is probably really beneficial to the larger fish, competing for resources and what not. I have witnessed this in my guppy fry, some fry grow really big fast while other ones are half the size. Also I believe they release the hormone under certain environmental conditions, but I don't know a whole lot about that. Aquariums are not natural settings though and if your fish is not growing it probably isn't a good thing.

Well that is all I can think of at the moment. Please if anyone has anymore to add, maybe shed some light on some more details, or have any experiences I would love to hear it. Step up :soapbox:

biggin
07-26-2008, 12:01 AM
I have heard it from a couple of places....natures alarm clock. Fish who grow faster eat those who do not...survival of the fittest.

Growth rates have WAY too many variables and I think a large one is the fish who wants it more will whip those who do not.

You could grow an oscar in a 10g, but it would be a lot of work and a real pain in the tail.

Many of the fish practices are cruel, some we do not even think about(look at how you get fish to grow fast). That is the curse of being in a hobby like this where you take a animal and make it fit your mold.



I don't know all the aquarium posts I have looked through and seen such large fish in such cramped quarters got me to thinking about fish growth and the old myth that 'fish grow to be the size of the container'. Obviously that is not always true and it is usually a death sentence for fish.

I don't know how many oscars I have seen in 10 gallon aquarium, or people putting schools of bala sharks in a 20 gallon, and common plecos (though I have never seen a stunted one) are just tossed into any size aquarium. I don't know how often I have stepped into wal mart and some person is buying a bowl kit (probably 1 gallon) for a goldfish along with a 2 inch fish. Or a recent episode I heard of where a wal mart was selling angel fish in a CUP *dies*. And not to mention all these new betta set ups, they look neat but only offer about a cup of water for the fish.

But I don't like bowls anyways, not a big fan of the bettas set ups either, or the cups they live in (but angel fish in a cup is just so wrong in so many ways). I think fish need filters,heaters, oxygen and room to swim. Really I think it is important that a fish has room to turn around, I don't like seeing 14 inch fish in a 55g that is only 12 inch width.

Anyways, I know fish stunting affects the organs and can lead to very serious damage and eventually the early death of a fish. Goldfish can live to like 20 years, but I bet most people have never kept a goldfish for for more than year or so before it dies.

Fish stunting is usually caused by environment, poor water conditions, even in a larger tank can stunt a fish, nutritional deficiencies due to poor diet, over crowding in a tank. I bet an oscar could grow to it's full size in a 10 gallon if the water is really really clean, but that is just cruel.

but what is the 'non growth hormone' I hear so much about. I have heard in the wild that larger more dominant fish can release a hormone that will keep smaller fish from growing (though I have not found anything on the internets about it, maybe someone else can help). In the wild that is probably really beneficial to the larger fish, competing for resources and what not. I have witnessed this in my guppy fry, some fry grow really big fast while other ones are half the size. Also I believe they release the hormone under certain environmental conditions, but I don't know a whole lot about that. Aquariums are not natural settings though and if your fish is not growing it probably isn't a good thing.

Well that is all I can think of at the moment. Please if anyone has anymore to add, maybe shed some light on some more details, or have any experiences I would love to hear it. Step up :soapbox:

bra8ndy8
07-26-2008, 12:05 AM
I completely understand!!! I was at petsmart........(cause that's all I have here!) and the worker sold me a common pleco with no explanation, but when I went to purchase a goldfish she wants to ask is I have at least a 20 gal (cause that's what it says on the "fish card"!) Where does it say that My BABY Jaws was EVER going to reach 20 inches long? Would not be able to turn around in a 100 gallon? And live for the last 14 yrs?? It drives me crazy that the associates will sell you a pleco that is a inch long and never ask you a question!!

Good Wolf
07-26-2008, 10:05 AM
The last time I was in Petsmart this lady had told the clerk that she just cleaned out her tank and didn't to restock. She proceeded to buy one or two of several different species of tetra, two gold fish, a common pleco, one peppered cory, and a few other misc. fish.

I then heard her telling them that she has a ten gallon tank.

I bite my tongue which I normally don't do. I just wasn't in the mood at the time.

Once she left I asked them if they were on commision and they aren't. So I asked him why the heck he would allow her to not only stock a newly set up tank but to stock it so poorly. He said that when he first started working there he would try to tell people the 'right' way to do things and they would get upset with him. His manager finally threatened his job so now he just STFU and does w/e the customer wants.

I dropped it and went to check out their frog selection. I pointed out to him that the frogs labeled 'large' african dwarf frogs were actually clawed frogs that got pretty big and are a lot more aggresive than the dwarfs and he said, "yeah you should have been in here when they had red peacocks labeled as gold fish". sigh

Xoles
07-27-2008, 09:46 AM
I have experienced some strange things raising killies. I have on more than one occassion had a couple of babies just take off growth wise and rest of them just stop growing. Then I remove the growers and change the water, low and behold, the others start growing. I have had this experience with more than one genus. I have also seen this with green sunfish.

Lakea
07-27-2008, 11:49 AM
This I thought was rather humerous, I was reading a post somewhere, and this person was so sure she had just inherited a couple of severely stunted angelfish in a ten gallon tank. The previous owner had never taken care of the fish and the water was extremely dirty. The 'angels' were a few years old, but were each only 2 inches. Of course everyone participating in the post had a lot of bad things to say. In the end it turned out the angels were actually just a couple of black skirt tetras :p:

Xoles
07-27-2008, 01:19 PM
LMAO, That's funny!!!

bra8ndy8
07-27-2008, 03:29 PM
Ohhh that's funny!! LOL

nicole4983
07-28-2008, 09:00 AM
At the walmart that I was in while in Florida, they had Tiger Oscars, BPs and JDs all in a little 10g holding..and on their info cards their req. tank size said 20 gallons!! Could you imagine someone who had no idea about fish buying one or all and putting them in a little 20...poor guys!

UncleSamsPuppet
07-28-2008, 10:32 AM
This is definitely a problem in the hobby.

Stores need to move product (fish) to stay in business. The national chain stores really don't have the resources (time/knowledgeable staff) to tell someone new to the hobby that the only thing you can keep in that 10/20 gallon tank in your basket are the common tetras and smaller fish. Doubt the stores would stay in business (or at least continue being able to have a fish department - if you can call it that) if they told the noobs they would have to 1) buy the smaller fish that would fit their smaller tanks. 2) Not buy too many fish to start with while the tank cycles. 3) Buy a much larger tank [which they might not even offer] if they wish to purchase that Oscar or Pleco.

And the fish bio's they have near the tanks are a joke. Freaking 10 or 20 gallon requirement for fish who need 55 gallons minimum - just makes me want to bring in a Sharpie and correct them all.

I think the major problems with this way of doing things is first off the fish suffer a slow painful death and second it turns a lot of folks off to a wonderful hobby because they can't keep 4 gold fish alive in a 1 gallon bowl with no filtration, etc.

If there's ever going to be a change in the situation it's gonna come from enough people complaining about the info (or lack there of) that's being handed out/printed at these stores.




Normally, if you do want to keep larger fish in a smaller tank (say for breeding) you need to over filter and under stock it. Plus make sure it's a temporary arrangement.

flamenco-t
07-28-2008, 02:07 PM
I have had a chain petstore that refused to sell me danios since I am using them for food...

I had some new baby monster that only feed live, I do not trust goldfish or rosy reds over my dead body. I was glad to spend $ 20 on 20 danios but the manager refused to sell them to me..He told me I was cruel and my respond was so is God...then I walked away lol..

stan

flamenco-t added 3 Minutes and 17 Seconds later...

This is stricly business, if every pet store actually uses the right/wrong card, they'll go out of business within months.

In any hobby, there will be 10 % enthusiast that cares about the animals and there are 90% newbies who simply do not care other than the way it looks in my house.

Our job is to educate, the pet store job is to sell...if I was to own a fish store, I'd turn away 9 out of 10 customers on a daily basis, then I'd go bankcrupt within a month.

This is the reason why I didn't sell my current business and started a fish store. I was close, until I realize, I hate selling guppies, mollies and platties hhahahaha lol

Lakea
07-28-2008, 03:34 PM
lol, I can't believe anyone would be so uptight about selling fish for feeders, especially in a chain petstore, half the fish would probably die some other way due to negligent owners.

tethorpe3
07-28-2008, 04:07 PM
THAT IS PART OF EVOLUTION..... IT HAPPENS. WE AS HUMAN PARTAKE IN IT AS WELL! GEEEEEEEEZ.