need to know what filter setup on 140g tank

[mike]

looking for filter setup ,, i need to know the least expensive way to go ,,
i here about DIY projects ,, just dont wknow cost wise which way to go ,, my tank is not drilled ,, thanks

[rolloffhill]

You could still do a wet/dry sump on the cheap. Just need to pick up an overflow to drain to the sump.

www.dfwfishbox.com/wetdry.php (http://www.dfwfishbox.com/wetdry.php)

Also some good info in this thread.. http://www.dfwfishbox.com/showthread.php?t=772&highlight=sump+filter

[AndrewH]

It also (sort of) depends on what type of tank you're gonna setup. Are you going cichlids or community?

Pound for pound, you can't beat the DIY wet/dry filters.

[mike]

might go cichlids , so my ?if i get a overflow box ,, the it flows down to a filter set up :ie homemade tower box with filter stuff , tha sits in another tank right like 10 g 14g ect.., then have a pump with another hose pump water back in ?

[AndrewH]

Yup, sounds like you have the right idea.

Gravity drains the water out through the overflow box, down to the wet/dry filter (tower with all the filter media which houses your bacteria), down to the sump where you have a pump which returns the clean water back to the tank.

Additionally, some guys are running an UGJ (under gravel jet) system, which uses the water coming outta the pump into a series of pipes that run under the substrate (can be sand, gravel, etc.). At the ends of the pipes there are nozzles to flow water over the top of the substrate to keep food, poo, and junk from building up (keeps the tank cleaner). I would recommend having some sort of power head inside the tank for this feature though, as the overflow box wouldn't pick up the junk the UGJ kicked up.

[mike]

so what is a power head , also if i do the UGJ do i need a one way valve just in case i lose power and cause a syphon action ! also what pump to use ,, tryign to do as cheap as possible let me know what to do !! lol

[AndrewH]

Power head = a pump normally inside the tank which isnt' connected to a filtration system (not a hard definition, but that's how I explain it, it's basically just a pump).

If you use a UGF with a power head, everything is inside the tank so no need for a check valve (a.k.a. one way valve). Now if you use (or also use) a wet/dry with a sump you'll need some sort of anti-siphon on the return line. A check valve will work, but it reduces your flow and they're expensive, so most people just drill a small hole in the piping at the water line (so it'll suck air if there's not water flowing and break the siphon). Best thing, it's free :D

Give me a sec and I'll get you a couple of links you should read ;)

[AndrewH]

http://www.dfwfishbox.com/showthread.php?t=772

http://www.dfwfishbox.com/showthread.php?t=994

and here's another you might find interesting.
http://www.dfwfishbox.com/showthread.php?t=862

[mike]

ok i think i get it, make the ugf come off my sump pump from my tank under my big tank , then have a power head ,somewhere in the tank (dont know where around bottom top or side ect.. ) to create current to move the poo and stuff to my overflow box , which moves it to my filter setup !

hope i not sounding dumb lol

[mike]

:confuzeld:hello need help here

[kewlkatdady]

It sounds like you have a decent grasp on it????

whats your next question?

[mike]

not sure about return line from my sump ,, does it go to my homemade UGF or does a power head go to the UGF and how far should the return line be in the tank ,, should it be pvc or nylon hose ?

[kewlkatdady]

the material really doesn't matter (pvc or hose) I don't think... some one else should chime in here.

I need some clarification of terminology... You are using an acronym for an under gravel filter (UGF)...
are you talking about an UGF or a under gravel JET (UGJ)?

If you are talking about a ugf system...I'd go reverse flow UGF which would work similar to a UGJ and the UGJ system would be easier.
The fact that the UGJ system would be easier is the reason I'd go UGJ vs. the reverse UGF...

so some clarification is in order before I can give a definate reponse.

[mike]

im sorry iwas talking about ugj ,, i know the ugf use to pull waste from the bottom ,, so the ugj blows up into the rocks and pushes the stuff around ,, right

[AndrewH]

Yeah, you have the idea... UGJ is what you're wanting.

You could use the return from the sump's pump to power the UGJ. Using nylon from the sump to the tank, then pvc inside the tank (as the substrate would probably collapse the nylon) would work, but you'd have to have 1 heavy duty pump to produce enough flow (heavy duty = lots-o-money).

My suggestion would be to have two smaller pumps. One to run the sump, and a second to run the UGJ so that they can both be smaller (= cheaper).

I would recommend putting the UGJ pump (a.k.a. power head) towards the back in one corner or the other as that'll make it easier to hide (using rocks or plants, etc. to keep it outta view). Other than that it can go anywhere in the tank, but you'll need to design the jets and piping for the system with some forethought of how you want it to look inside the tank since the pump and the jets will be visible (but hide-able).

KewlKatdady, has a great example of a UGJ system in his 58 gallon, but he's not using a wet/dry (a.k.a. sump, a.k.a. w/d, a.k.a. trickle filter) because it's not necessary. But on a 140 gallon you're really limited on your filter options that'll handle that much water (not to say a wet/dry isn't a great filtering system, just that hang on back power filters wouldn't be practical).

[kewlkatdady]

yes, UGJ's keep the poo and other solids from settling on the bottom. To answer the question from the other thread...

I would use a seperate pump like a power head...instead of the return fom the sump.
You can rig up a sponge on the power head to work as a pre filter also. This works very well and is easy to rinse the sponge a couple times a week. You can rinse this sponge in tap water as there will not be much bio bacteria there and the sump will have plenty of bio...

I'd use a hob power filter for polishing...my preference is a aqua clear 110.

This combo should keep your tank VERY clear.

the UGJ's are designed to blow across the top of the substrate...not actually up into the rocks. Not saying that the flow "has" to be across the top, but it probably works a little this way.

[mike]

ooh so they are not under under the gravel rocks ,ect , but on top ,, ok humm what is a polishing filter , is that a hang on back ,, kinda like a bio wheel , with no wheel right , is that going to be alot of filtering , i got a wet dry 200 and a mag 7 , think that is plenty right ,, also how far should my return be in my tank , like half way or top , or bottom opp side from overflow box ect... sorry about all the ? just new to this type of filter

[AndrewH]

Yeah, the piping is under the gravel (to hide them), but the jets come back above grade to flow water over the top of the gravel.

200 w/d and a mag 7 should be perfect.

To my personal understanding, a polishing HOB (hang on back) filter is simply additional filtering (which it might have special media, like ceramic cylinders, etc.) to help keep the water clean and clear. Chime in if you know more about polishing!

Oh, and ask all the questions you want. That's why these forums exist :D

[kewlkatdady]

polishing is just a method of filteration...

I polish my 125 with an AC 110 that has nothing other than the foam that came with it....and pillow stuffing...

That tank usually stays perfect.

water polishing is just the use of a fine filter media (pillow stuffing is what i use) to get all the micro (ok maybe not micro, but still too small for normal filteration) particle out of the water.

[AndrewH]

Ok, I'm following the polishing theory now. Makes good sense.

[mike]

ok i see . so i guess i am going to make the ugj and get a power head to run it,
but what i was asking how far should my sump return be in the tank ?

[biggin]

What are you going to use to agitate the surface?

ok i see . so i guess i am going to make the ugj and get a power head to run it,
but what i was asking how far should my sump return be in the tank ?

[kewlkatdady]

the return from the sump could be made from pvc and after its back in the tank...make a spray bar out of pvc...
this would help solve the agitation issue that biggin brought up...

[AndrewH]

ok i see . so i guess i am going to make the ugj and get a power head to run it,
but what i was asking how far should my sump return be in the tank ?

Most (biggin and kewlkatdady above) recommend ending the return near the surface in a spray bar. Basically, it's a pvc pipe with holes drilled every so often to all the out flowing water to break up the surface of the water (= additional aeration). If you have CO2 on the tank it will be wasted with this configuration, but for non-CO2 tank you want all the aeration you can get.

Also, be sure to put a hole in the return at the water line (inside the tank :D), so to prevent a siphon if the power goes out.

[kewlkatdady]

after thinking about this for awhile...won't the overflow aeriate the water...?

[biggin]

Maybe Spar will check this out. He said something interesting that I have not had a chance to look at but, he said that the overflow and the sump return are good for CO2. It is on my list of things to check out before I setup the big tank.

If you have CO2 on the tank it will be wasted with this configuration, but for non-CO2 tank you want all the aeration you can get.

[AndrewH]

after thinking about this for awhile...won't the overflow aeriate the water...?

Yup, anything that stirs, turns, or rolls the water some how (even the water dropping through the piping down to the sump) will aerate it. The spray bar over the filter pads (as well as the drip tray) in the sump are design to add as much O2 into the water as possible as it'll encourage more bacteria to grow. Almost everything to do with a wet/dry will aerate the water, so that's why it's wise to go with a sealed canister filter if you're running CO2.

Maybe Spar will check this out. He said something interesting that I have not had a chance to look at but, he said that the overflow and the sump return are good for CO2. It is on my list of things to check out before I setup the big tank.

I'd definitely be interested in reading it as I can't see how you'd even keep enough disolved in the tank to make it worth your while. The only way I can think of would be to inject a chit load of CO2 right at the pump's inlet so that the impellers disolve it and then have the intake and drain as far apart as possible in the tank. My thoughts were that you'd have to inject so much that it wouldn't be practical, but I dunno for sure.

Biggin, I have a 125 wet/dry and a pump we could test it out if you wanted. I know you have those XP3 which I'm assuming you're wanting to use on the 180? Simply hook up the canisters and the wet/dry at the same time, get the CO2 going, then turn off the canisters for 24 hours, then check the CO2 levels in the tank.

[biggin]

Biggin, I have a 125 wet/dry and a pump we could test it out if you wanted. I know you have those XP3 which I'm assuming you're wanting to use on the 180? Simply hook up the canisters and the wet/dry at the same time, get the CO2 going, then turn off the canisters for 24 hours, then check the CO2 levels in the tank.

I have not decided on what I want to do with the 180 yet. I was thinking about doing a wet/dry and the XP3, but nothing is set in stone yet.

Hell, I still need to clean it up and see about fixing the scratches....

[mike]

yeah you got alot of cleaning to do. lol ,, good luck

[poel_19]

you still need help??

[fishyjoe24]

that's a leason 101 with lots of teaching can some one draw or make up some models for the class to look at?

[AndrewH]

What you needing a lesson/drawing on there Joey?