Just advice

[BlackJew]

Hey I was enjoying my new little oscars today and noticed that the smallest one has a few white dots on it's little side fins. at first I thought it was ICK... But I don't think I'd get a fish from the store with ICK. It's not anywhere else on the fish... Ideas ?

[OOwl]

Hey, your fellow oscar lover here. . . When mine were about that size (and even now when they're half grown), they have from time to time gotten bumps and stuff that caused them to LOOK like they had something going on in the Ick department. BUT, I just fed them really well, kept the water pristine clean and at a constant fairly warm temp (78F), and even added a bit of salt, and they came out of that just fine. Oscars, especially babies, are forever bumping themselves on stuff and coming up with boo-boos. They're like kutzy puppies. Clean water, good food, no stress, salt, warm water, a bit of Stresscoat if you're worried about it, and they should be just fine in a few days. Good luck and enjoy your new babies. If it TRULY turns into Ick, you'll know it and need to isolate and treat but I bet they'll be fine in a couple of days.

[masroberts9]

x2

[BlackJew]

Yeah ... I still have know idea what's on the fins.. It's not spreading so I guess he just bumped in to something. Anyway's thanks

[masroberts9]

my oscar has gotten ich its pretty noticable, but those guy are tough. i added a little salt and a couple days later was back to new. i still dont have a heater on that tank other wise i would have turned up the temp a little.

[dannyandsarah]

I agree, add a little salt and that should do the trick. I've cleared up ick in my tanks several times just by adding salt and raising the temp a little. Depending on the pet store, it's not entirely unlikely that you purchased your fish with ick. I've seen fish with terrible ick at several different stores (especially the large chains) and the employees still try to sell them like there's nothing wrong. Even if it's not ick, a little salt may do him some good. Good luck!

[BlackJew]

OK so maybe I have a bigger problem. Now I noticed that the other... new fish have little white spots on there fins too. I've never had ICK in this tank before water is perfect. I did however change the gravel. I turned the temp up to 81 and addded salt. None of the fish look stressed out or anything just a few dots on there fins ... What should I do ?

[masroberts9]

post some pics if you can. i really think they will be fine in a few days. but it would help to have pics.

[BlackJew]

Ok I also added Aquari-sol it said to remove the carbon. I cant do that so I just added the 12 drops per 10 gal... I also turned the temp up a little more to about 82 it said to turn it up to 85.

BlackJew added 1 Minutes and 41 Seconds later...

post some pics if you can. i really think they will be fine in a few days. but it would help to have pics.

It's very small I have to catch them just perfect in order to see it. But in all I have 4 fish out of 7 that now have this stuff... On there fins only.

[masroberts9]

ive never heard of that stuff...maybe someone else has. im thinking that oscars (south american cichlids) dont need as high a temperature as africans. 85 may be too high. maybe 78 or something. im guessing that Aquari-sol is some kind of medicine:confused:. and carbon will filter it out before it has time to do its job. but i would just use salt. im going to google that stuff real quick.

masroberts9 added 6 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

yeah it may not help much with your filters in. anyhow, i believe that ich is something within all fish, sort of like chicken pox in humans, except that it can flare up more than once. stress is typically the cause of a flare up. i've also heard that it has a 21 day life cycle where it is only treatable during the water stages (stages in which it is not attached the fish). so treatment might kill stuff in the water, but it wont do anything to the stuff on the fish. so you would need to do multiple treatments. and catch it in the water stages, which is said to be 14 of 21 days.

[BlackJew]

ive never heard of that stuff...maybe someone else has. im thinking that oscars (south american cichlids) dont need as high a temperature as africans. 85 may be too high. maybe 78 or something. im guessing that Aquari-sol is some kind of medicine:confused:. and carbon will filter it out before it has time to do its job. but i would just use salt. im going to google that stuff real quick.

masroberts9 added 6 Minutes and 1 Seconds later...

yeah it may not help much with your filters in. anyhow, i believe that ich is something within all fish, sort of like chicken pox in humans, except that it can flare up more than once. stress is typically the cause of a flare up. i've also heard that it has a 21 day life cycle where it is only treatable during the water stages (stages in which it is not attached the fish). so treatment might kill stuff in the water, but it wont do anything to the stuff on the fish. so you would need to do multiple treatments. and catch it in the water stages, which is said to be 14 of 21 days.

Ok so what do I need to do at this point. Temp is set at 82 that means it will get about 80 in the tank. Salt has been added . 15 g worth. I already use it in the tank. The temp is always 78 never changes much. Are you saying that the fish will die in 21 days ?

[masroberts9]

no, i didnt mean to say that fish will die in 21 days. i've heard that ich dies 21 days after creation. i believe the chicken pox theory. i would just leave them be for a few days if it ios in fact ich. i would still like to see pics, unless you know its ich.

[BlackJew]

Can you clear Ick up with salt and warm water ? Tank is 81 atm . . . and going to add more salt.

I just removed all the carbon and added med to the tank and going to add more every 24 hours. I hope this works. temp is now at 83

[masroberts9]

yeah ich can clear up without anything. the fish can fight ich themselves. we just help by adding stuff. i prefer just to use a little salt. i dont even have heaters on my oscar tank. never used medicine on the oscar. i have tried medicine on other fish. im not sure if the others had ich, but i treated them for ich ... some died some didnt.

my oscar has had ich twice. i just added salt an it got better in a few days to a week. im not sure what caused the ich but im sure its stress, i may have changed the substrate when it got the ich. used to be that when i did water changes...my escondidos would have ich flare up, but it was gone the next day. the water changes just stressed them out. now when i do water changes.... i have no problems. i guess they got used to it. never had problems with most of my africans. i did have one peacock die, but i dont think it was ich.....the fish has bloody scales everywhere. at first it looked like ich so i treated it for ich. then i treated it for velvet, then something else. that dude was a fighter he looked horrible for close to a month before he finally died :(. gl man keep us posted.

[AndrewH]

Sounds a lot like your fish has fungal fin rot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_rot) (as apposed to bacterial fin rot which is more common). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_rot) Try using Malachite Green (http://www.novalek.com/kordon/malachite_green/images/malachite_green%20copy.jpg) to cure it if it sounds like this is what you have.

Ich is a parasite (http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ich.htm). Actual tiny bugs living on the fish.

[masroberts9]

see... i've heard that too.

[BlackJew]

Well .. looks like most of the fish are getting better. When I got home I checked on the fish and all but one look better. I think the one that looks worse.. I might just not have been able to see him very good before I left. I thought they were all going to die. I did some research and found out that juv oscars get Ick alot. Ok.. so now that they are getting better DO I need to do a water change every morning before I treat the tank again?
Temp is 83 and holding. Fish don't look stressed at all. I added a lot of salt early this morning and the Aqua-sol (Ick treatment).

[masroberts9]

what do the directions say? my medicine says to do a (i think large) waterchange every 3 days. i doubt a small change everyday could hurt.

[BlackJew]

Sounds a lot like your fish has fungal fin rot (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_rot) (as apposed to bacterial fin rot which is more common). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fin_rot) Try using Malachite Green (http://www.novalek.com/kordon/malachite_green/images/malachite_green%20copy.jpg) to cure it if it sounds like this is what you have.

Ich is a parasite (http://freshaquarium.about.com/cs/disease/p/ich.htm). Actual tiny bugs living on the fish.

It don't sound like Fungal fin rot, Sounds like the early stages of ICK. I think I found out where the problem started. I got some Guppys for my little girls tank. She loves the fancy guppys.. Anyways I wanted to see what the baby oscars would do if I added some to there tank ... and well they ate them all. I went to feed them today (the guppys) ... and they are covered in ICK I mean BAD!! most are dead. So they ate guppys with ICK. Sound about right ?

[masroberts9]

totally probable

[BlackJew]

what do the directions say? my medicine says to do a (i think large) waterchange every 3 days. i doubt a small change everyday could hurt.

Checking ... don't say what to do. Just to add 12 drops every 24 hours and raise temp to 85 until cured.

[masroberts9]

hmmmm. well i guess that mean to keep with your regular wc schedule.

[BlackJew]

Mason...How much salt do you use in your tank. BTW .. The name is Mike.

BlackJew added 1 Minutes and 50 Seconds later...

hmmmm. well i guess that mean to keep with your regular wc schedule.

30% every Friday after a vac

[masroberts9]

i would say that i use 1 tbs every 10 gallons. add if sick i'll add 2 more tbs./ 50 gallons per day for max 3 days. so on my 75 i add 3 tbs. i dont want it to get too salty.

[BlackJew]

Ohshit... I put 10 tbs in my tank.. . lol It said 1 tbs for every 5 gallons for treatment.. they act like they like it .

[masroberts9]

maybe they do like it. :hehe: i just dont put that much in. you can be our guinea pig :hehe:. that maybe fine. i try not to over load them with chemistry changes. i try to keep a tbs per 10 gallons. so when i do wc i add salt to the water to get it back to 1tbs/10 gallons, when they get better after being sick...i use un salted water to get the concentration close to 1 tbs/10gal. im pretty sure you'll be fine. its just my max that you exceeded. ive never tried that much salt, so i cant say its a bad thing.

[BlackJew]

:D ... Thanks for all the help guy's. I'll keep you updated on the Ick ... and the amout of salt thay can handle. So far 50g worth of treatment is the trick.

[BlackJew]

Do we have a sticky for ICK ?

[AndrewH]

It don't sound like Fungal fin rot, Sounds like the early stages of ICK. I think I found out where the problem started. I got some Guppys for my little girls tank. She loves the fancy guppys.. Anyways I wanted to see what the baby oscars would do if I added some to there tank ... and well they ate them all. I went to feed them today (the guppys) ... and they are covered in ICK I mean BAD!! most are dead. So they ate guppys with ICK. Sound about right ?

totally probable

I agree... simply having the guppies in the tank (even if they weren't eaten) probably would have gave the oscars ich.

:D ... Thanks for all the help guy's. I'll keep you updated on the Ick ... and the amout of salt thay can handle. So far 50g worth of treatment is the trick.

You're very welcome.

Do we have a sticky for ICK ?
Good idea... maybe we can do an all out "FISH ILLNESS" thread with common treatments, but then again we are on the internet with a ton of information as far away as a second tab and a search engine. Maybe all we need is an "ID THIS ILLNESS" for me type thread kinna like you did?

[BlackJew]

Well looks like they are getting better. I'm guessing that either the warmer water or salt is starting to get to them. There fins look almost clear but they are starting to look a little beat up. I only have about 2 more day's and they should be good. I'm going to wait a little longer until the the treatment is over before I do a water change. Does anyone know if salt ever leaves the tank... or is the only way to get rid of it is to do a water change.

BlackJew added 2 Minutes and 46 Seconds later...


Good idea... maybe we can do an all out "FISH ILLNESS" thread with common treatments, but then again we are on the internet with a ton of information as far away as a second tab and a search engine. Maybe all we need is an "ID THIS ILLNESS" for me type thread kinna like you did?


I'm going to start getting some info together on Ick. I would have found it very helpful if there was a sticky on this. But that's just me.

[kSpieler]

No, Salt does not leave the tank except by water changes. Oh, and taper the amount of salt over a couple of water changes ... don't just stop adding it suddenly after a large WC.

Glad to hear they are doing better!

[BlackJew]

They are better then better .... They are Healed ! ! !:) I was getting kinda freaked out because my blood parrot turned black. But once I quite adding the aqua-sol (ick med's) she turned pink again. My blood parrot is a major digger. She dug a hole to the bottom and now sit's in it like a fox hole... strange fish.

[masroberts9]

im happy to hear that have healed man. now you have ich experience :D.

[BlackJew]

It's not much fun.... Mostly sucks.

[masroberts9]

truely, but it shouldnt be so scary next time.

[arnold]

Food for thought
The salt myth has been around almost as long as the hobby itself. It goes like this ... "You should always add salt to your tank water because it reduces stress, adds electrolytes, improves gill function, speed disease recovery and more."

The quantity of salt you are told to add seems to vary with the poster and the local mythology but generally is on the order of one tablespoon per five gallons. This advice seems to be given with no questions asked about water hardness, species of fish kept, presence or absence of live plants, or even water volume of the tank.

The"use salt" prescription is presented as one of the great revealed truths about captive fish husbandry, it's universal and it's rarely if ever qualified or restricted. IT'S NOT BASED ON SCIENCE. In fact, it goes against many of the principals of aquatic biology as we know them.

The statement that "salt helps fish regulate their osmotic balance" is patently ridiculous! all fish are different in this regard, depending on where they live. Some species are native to "soft water/low dissolved solids" habitats while others inhabit hard and alkaline biotopes with high salt concentrations inherent in the water. The species inhabiting these very different environments have developed metabolic processes which take advantage of the specific chemistry of that water. To add salt in the misguided attempt to "help regulate osmotic balance" may actually upset that very balance you are erroneously trying to help.

Does adding salt reduce stress? does salt reduce YOUR stress? of course not and there's no evidence that it does so in fish either and in fact, in many species of fish it may actually increase it.

Adds electrolyte? salt is sodium chloride, period. Yes, those are "electrolytes" but unless you have extremely soft water, you can be certain that it already contains both sodium and chloride and a host of other ions as well. Do your fish need more? what evidence is there to support this "theory"?

your fish are much better served by leaving them alone and allowing them to regulate their own osmotic balance ... something they have been doing without your help for thousands of years.
The idea that salt is a tonic for fish when it is kept in fish tanks at moderate levels (~ 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons) needs to be taken with a "grain of salt". If your fish are the most commonly kept community fish such as tetras, corys, angels or even the rasboras and most anabantids, these are fish largely from soft, acid, low-TDS (total dissolved solids) waters. The average tap water in the U.S and Europe is at least moderately hard and alkaline and is certainly not improved by increasing the "salt" concentration ... that very thing in which our water already differs most from the natural waters of these fish. Certainly many of these fish adapt well to our local water conditions and I am an advocate of adapting non-breeding fish to local conditions. This is far better for both fish and keeper than constantly battling see-sawing water parameters. But, acclimation to your tap water is one thing .... making your water worse than it already is however, is quite another.
The prophylactic use of salt to avoid common pathogens and parasites of fish by keeping some level of salt in the tank is also fraught with difficulty. True, the use of salt, usually accompanied by increased temperature, is an effective treatment for one of the most common ectoparasite which beginning aquarists encounter ... Ichthyophthirius multifiliis, or Ich. However, only the free-swimming form of this parasite is treatable. Neither the fish-embedded growth phase, nor the encysted multiplication stage that rests on or in the substrate is readily attacked by salt or any other medication. Thus prophylactic treatment is useless as it makes little sense to treat a non-infected tank on a chronic basis. Further, any treatment for parasitic infestation is a "medication" and thus the use of salt differs little from the use of any one of the other available Ick medications available at any LFS. The biggest difference in my opinion though, is that of all the medications available, salt is probably the least effective by comparison. As far as the use of salt to prevent bacterial pathogens .. BUNK!

another fallacy is the addition of NaCl for livebearers. These fish as a group are native to estuarine environments where the waters are likely to be hard and alkaline at least and may even be brackish. The addition of sodium chloride (i.e., "salt") does absolutely nothing to match these species native waters since salt as comprises only a small portion of the total "salt" concentration -- the more significant elements are calcium, magnesium, potassium, boron and silicate salts.

It's important to note that the term "salt" isn't limited to sodium chloride. Calcium and Magnesium salts of carbonate, silicate, phosphate and borate are actually more important to the biology of brackish water fish. If your water is at least moderately hard (GH and KH 8-12) then the addition of some NaCl will do no harm. On the other hand if your water is soft and acid the addition of sodium salt will do little good. You need increased buffering capacity as much as the addition of minerals to the water and NaCl alone does absolutely nothing in this regard. You will need to add crushed coral or aragonite, both of which are primarily calcium carbonate salts, in addition to 'salt' as sodium chloride or better still, use marine salt mix which contains the whole range of cations and anions (positively and negatively charged ions, such as Na+, Ca ++; Cl-, CO3--) found in the sea. This will adequately buffer your water and more closely match the native waters of most live bearers in question.

In fact, Doc Wellfish salt is aquarium salt; and aquarium salt, kosher salt, rock salt, table salt are all simply sodium chloride -- period.


The composition of marine salt is:

Element ppm
Chloride, Cl 19,500
Sodium, Na 10,770
Magnesium, Mg 1,290
Sulphur, S 905
Calcium, Ca 412
Potassium, K 380
Bromine, Br 67
Carbon, C 28
Nitrogen, N 11.5
Strontium, Sr 8
Oxygen, O 6
Boron, B 4.4
Silicon, Si 2
Fluorine, F 1.3
Argon, Ar 0.43
Lithium, Li 0.18
Rubidium, Rb 0.12
Phosphorus, P 0.06
Iodine, I 0.06
Barium, Ba 0.02
Molybdenium, Mo 0.01
Arsenic, As 0.0037
Uranium, U 0.0032
Vanadium, V 0.0025
Titanium, Ti 0.001
Zinc, Zn 0.0005
Nickel, Ni 0.00048
Aluminium, Al 0.0004
Cesium, Cs 0.0004
Chromium, Cr 0.0003
Antimony, Sb 0.00024
Krypton, Kr 0.0002
Selenium, Se 0.0002
Neon, Ne 0.00012
Manganese, Mn 0.0001
Cadmium, Cd 0.0001
Copper, Cu 0.0001
Tungsten, W 0.0001
Iron, Fe 0.000055
Xenon, Xe 0.00005
Zirconium, Zr 0.00003
Bismuth, Bi 0.00002
Niobium, Nb 0.00001
Thallium, Tl 0.00001
Thorium, Th 0.00001
Hafnium, Hf 7 x 10-6
Helium, He 6.8 x 10-6
Beryllium, Be 5.6 x 10-6
Germanium, Ge 5 x 10-6
Gold, Au 4 x 10-6
Rhenium, Re 4 x 10-6
Cobalt, Co 3 x 10-6
Lanthanum, La 3 x 10-6
Neodymium, Nd 3 x 10-6
Lead, Pb 2 x 10-6
Silver, Ag 2 x 10-6
Tantalum, Ta 2 x 10-6
Gallium, Ga 2 x 10-6
Yttrium, Y 1.3 x 10-6
Mercury, Hg 1 x 10-6
Cerium, Ce 1 x 10-6
Dysprosium, Dy 9 x 10-7
Erbium, Er 8 x 10-7
Ytterbium, Yb 8 x 10-7
Gadolinium, Gd 7 x 10-7
Praseodymium, Pr 6 x 10-7
Scandium, Sc 6 x 10-7
Tin, Sn 6 x 10-7
Holmium, Ho 2 x 10-7
Lutetium, Lu 2 x 10-7
Thulium, Tm 2 x 10-7
Indium, In 1 x 10-7
Trebium, Tb 1 x 10-7
Palladium, Pd 5 x 10-8
Samarium, Sm 5 x 10-8
Tellurium, Te 1 x 10-8
Europium, Eu 1 x 10-8
Radium, Ra 7 x 10-11
Protactinium, Pa 5 x 10-11
Radon, Rn 6 x 10-16


brackish water is simply sea water which is diluted. Thus, sea salt is the proper way to duplicate a brackish water environment. If you use 'aquarium salt' you are not duplicating the conditions native to brackish water but rather, making a sort of half hearted attempt.

Salt does have other limited uses. It temporarily reduces the effect of nitrite toxicity at 0.1-0.3 % -- the chloride ion counteracting the nitrogen blockage of oxygen uptake. Salt is useful for the eradication of hydra at 0.3-0.5 % for five days. Salt will remove leeches from pond fish as a 3.0 % bath for 15 minutes. Salt will mitigate the affects of ulcer disease in cold water fish as a 1.0 % addition to the tank water by temporarily reducing osmotic stress. Beyond these few 'uses of salt' ... it has no place in your aquarium.



comment:


Badman's Note: I received this in an email and wanted to add it here. I cannot validate or dismiss the accuracy of the source.
From: Lisa C Pinno
Date:01/18/2008
You have a article on your site which says there is no scientific proof that salt lowers stress. I feel I should mention that there is.....! Carneiro, P.C.F.; Urbinati, E.C. 2001a. Salt as a stress response mitigator of matrinxã Brycon cephalus (Teleostei: Characidae) during transport. Aquac. Research 32: 297-304 Influence of Water Hardness and Salts on Survival and Physiological Characteristics of Striped Bass during and after Transport PATRICIA M. MAZIKa, BILL A. SIMCOb, and NICK C. PARKERc Are two that definitely show a difference. Just thought you might what to know!

As stated it IS good for Ick treatment- Personally I have fallen aways from the prophylactic uses of salt for various reasons, one being if you already have salt in your water any additions will be less viable or harder to gain good results.
I was believing in the thought that by adding salt in times of illness or stress that the relief from easing the osmotic pressure just made it easy for the fish's metabolism to focus on recovery but perhaps I need to do more reading.
Salt has been used correctly or incorrectly in the hobby for yrs and I like to add it every other month or so, and I cant really see it hurting anything except in salt sensitive fish

[BlackJew]

thanks for clearing that up ..:)

[masroberts9]

hey paul, good read. except i think we were referring to epsom salt (magnesium sulfate). but that is good stuff to know about table salt. :tease: