amonia

[fishyjoe24]

how do i get rid of it it killed 10 angels in two days. it time for a water change will that take the ammonia away?

[Goathead]

Yes do a water change.. Also siphon your gravel and clean your filters, but make sure you use tank water to clean them.

[Goathead]

Make it at least a 50% water change, and then do another 50% in a few days.

[fishyjoe24]

welll i let about 25 procent of it evaporate out so what should do just take out the 50 procent and then fill it back up? thanks for the help guys.

[biggin]

What kind of filter?

[lellison]

They have said it. Water change, water change. Hope you don't loose any more!

[ElijahTurtle]

welll i let about 25 procent of it evaporate out so what should do just take out the 50 procent and then fill it back up? thanks for the help guys.

Fill the 25% back up...Then do another 50% W/C.

[Goathead]

I agree with Elijah. Do it quick.

[fishyjoe24]

ok i'll do it to night that is if i can find the phyon siphon hose. filters a 304 and a 404 fluval cansiters.

[Goathead]

That sounds under filtered to me. Go buy yourself a power head, and a fluidized bed filter, and your problems will all be gone...(That is if you dont go 2 months between water changes.):)

[kewlkatdady]

that definately under filter for a 240. How many fish?

I have a fx5 and an AC110 on my 125...

Water change is a temporary fix for ammo...did you add a lot of fish at once?

We need to figure out why the ammo went up not figure out how to put a band aid on it.

[fishyjoe24]

That sounds under filtered to me. Go buy yourself a power head, and a fluidized bed filter, and your problems will all be gone...(That is if you dont go 2 months between water changes.):)



what's a fluidized bed filter? also how much does it cost and where can i buy one at.. i have a extra flavul 404 that im not using should i add that to my aquarium as well? i bought 10 angel fish on the 27th then the next day 11 angel fish. so far 13 angels have died. i have 8 angels still alive, 4 pictus cat fish,about 20 cory cats, 3 small tinfoil barbs, a leaporusis, and a synodinus catfish. is that to many fish in the tank, and how under powered are my filters?

[Trayl]

Okay, you need to hook up that other 404. The 304 is designed for less than 70gallons and the 404 is for less than 100 gallons, which means if you hook up the extra 404 you'll be pretty close to minimum filtration for your 240.

Next, bed filters/undergravel filters can be purchased at most any fish store including places like Petsmart. I don't know much about them because I enjoy live plants and there tend to be problems with undergravel filters and live plants.

Other things of note. You can purchase Ammonia reducing media for your filters that will help prevent future spikes. Another thing is has the tank been fairly recently setup? You may not have very well established biological filtration. Most fish stores sell various bacteria starters that help jump start your biological filtration. Additionally, adding large numbers of fish can cause spikes in ammonia especially if the biological filtration isn't well established. Given you have a 240 and it takes longer for swings in water quality, you probably have been having a gradual build up rather than an actual spike.

Summary for those with short attention spans: Hook up your extra Fluval 404 to fix underfiltration. Do 50% water changes until your ammonia levels are safe again. Consider getting ammonia reducing media for filters and bacteria starter to bolster biological filtration.

[Goathead]

A fluidized bed filter is not an under gravel filter, here are the specs, and you can pick one up for under $50. I have an fx5 and a fluidized bed filter on my 215 and it doesnt matter how many fish i add at a time, i never see an ammonia spike.

http://www.pentairaquatics.com/pdfs/R270246_fluidize_bed.pdf

[Trayl]

I stand corrected on the fluidized bed filter. Benefit of being on a fish forum is you get to learn about things you otherwise would never hear of.

As for not having ammonia spikes on your 215, if you're using a Fluval FX5, that alone is almost twice the "required" filtration, so I doubt you ever have any problems with that tank. Quite frankly, with as much filtration as you have on your tank, it would actually be rather hard to determine how much of the benefit is from the fluidized bed filter and just straight overfiltration.

Be that as it may, Joey has always been very clear about not being able to afford new equipment regularly, so recommending he purchase a new piece of equipment when he has another filter that would bring him up to acceptable filtration levels seems a bit unreasonable. It's also worth noting that fluidized bed filters are described as taking longer to establish biological filtration in (although superior filtration once established), which would also be counterintuitive to an immediate fix for Joey's dying fish.

[Goathead]

There is no immediate fix for joey's problem, aside from using ammonia reducing resin or chemicals. the Fluval fx5 is rated at 400 gallon, however; I just recently purchased it, and prior to acquiring it i was using a filter rated at 150 gallons. (Still with no problems, regardless of fish load.) Canister filters can be sufficient for biological filtration, but need the right amount of specialized media to accomplish this. As for the cost, Joey currently has a extra Fluval filter which is easily worth $50. You can NEVER over filter an aquarium, only under filter. With already seasoned filters, it wont take much time at all for a Fluidized Bed Filter to properly filter. If he wanted to air on the side of cation, he could pre season the filter with live bacteria.

Joey if you do decide to buy one check Ebay, and Aquabid

[Trayl]

I guess our definitions of an immediate solution to the problem differ. I see the primary problem as underfiltration and that could be remedied by simply hooking up the 404. Adding bacteria starter and changing the water along with adding chemicals could ease the problem while the biological filtration had time to get established. These are solutions with minimal out of pocket expense that could be done immediately.

For a long term solution, the fluidized bed filter is probably a much better alternative (and an option I'm going to look into for our 50 gallon). However, buying and selling off eBay takes time and something needs to be done during the interim. I know if my fish were dying and I realized the cause was inadequate filtration and I happened to have an extra filter lying around, the first thing I would do is hook that filter up. After I had an adequate system in place, I would start looking at more long term solutions.

I see what you're saying and even agree that purchasing a fluidized bed filter is the best option in the long run by far. However, you're assuming that his current filters are properly seasoned, that he could quickly sell the 404, that he could quickly purchase and receive a new filter, and that he could manage to keep his fish alive with inadequate filtration during this time. That's alot of assumptions to place on a situation that has lives hanging in the balance in my opinion.

[Goathead]

Joey no that is not too many fish for that tank. The tank just needs more filtration.

[kewlkatdady]

I agree with most that has been said EXCEPT adding a chemical or a resin to "remove" the ammo.
These products do not remove the ammo, but they temporarily "lock" the ammo up...
but they will loose hold of the ammo and release it all back into the tank.

There are only two ways of removing ammo...water change and bio bacteria.

Adding a uncycled filter to the tank will take awhile to actually help because the bacteria still has to grow in this filter to process (notice I didn't say remove) the ammo into nitrites and then into nitrates.

So a solution is to get some seasoned filter media from someone close to you and put that into the new filter and then add the new filter to the tank. This could still take a few days to show changes.

Joey... I have 45 africans in my 125...so you do not have too many fish, but the tank is underfiltered. I use a fx5 and a ac110 on my 125. I have the fx5 FULL of bio media and the AC110 is set up for polishing. You may want to re-evaluate what media you are using in your current filters and make sure that there is enough bio media to grow a big enough bio colony and you should be able to put 150 fish (or more) in that tank...provided they are done over time.

[fishyjoe24]

i have biomax and ammocarb in the filters. oh and i have some fritz-zyme turbo start if that's what you are talking about..i finely found my siphon hose so now in the morning i can finely do a water change.

[kewlkatdady]

biomax is a bio media...
ammocarb is garbage.

use plain carbon...if you have to have chemical filtration. The only reason I would use carbon is to remove medication. Other than that I never have to use it.

the ammo "removing" resins do remove the ammo...they only lock it up. By the way ammocarb isn't a bio media either. My advise is to sh!t can the ammo carb and add gravel or some other cheap bio media bed. I use ehiem efhi substrate pro...its expensive, but it works well. Other bio media is fine, but this is what I use. If you want, you can buy me a new liter of substrate pro and I will give you some on my cycled media.

Let me know.

I would think you'd need more

[fatfutures]

Summary for those with short attention spans: Hook up your extra Fluval 404 to fix underfiltration. Do 50% water changes until your ammonia levels are safe again. Consider getting ammonia reducing media for filters and bacteria starter to bolster biological filtration.

Gee... thanks, don't think I could have made it though all that info without this clarification. :cs:

[AndrewH]

Here you go...

It seem joey may have jumped the gun a little on adding lots of fish. I know personally I've done the same thing and may fish have suffered because of my actions, but we all start somewhere and hopefully don't make the same mistakes over and over.

His tank needs to be better established before adding lots of fish and also needs to make sure there's enough filtration to handle the size tank he has or he'll always have problem.

I think all of the advice is needed. There needs to be a short term bandaid to fix the current problem and also a long term solution so the problem doesn't keep happening.

Bandaid:
My personal opinion would be to change out some of the filter media in one of the canisters that's been running for a while on the tank with new media and put that old media into the new canister (along with some new, maybe half and half in both canisters). Then do water changes as often as needed to keep the toxic levels down until the canisters can take over.

Long term:
I would plan on adding addional filtration (bed filter, extra canister besides the 3) and try not to add so many fish at one time if it can be helped.

Even if joey's current filters can handle the bioload he has, adding lots of fish at one time can cause problems until the bacteria can catch up.

[fishyjoe24]

thanks, for the help. so i'll take the carbon out and add more biomax to the cansitsers.

[fishyjoe24]

ok now im confused and pissed. i just got back from exotic aquatics and had my water checked. they said the only problem was the nitrate. so i don't know what going on how can i have ammonia one day and no ammonia the next then no ammonia.

[Goathead]

sounds like your filter caught up, Or possibly something wrong with EA's tests, Or your tests.

[fishyjoe24]

ok, well i used the 5 in 1 test strips if that makes a differents?

[arnold]

may be overkill, but I would do 50% wc every day for about a week. How seasoned are your filters? If your filters are very seasoned/been running a long time, I would change one while doing a wc and let it get going then do the other one in a couple weeks. Sand filters DO work great, I have one pumping from my wet dry as a return line, works great.
As long as you have good water I firmly believe in wc, the more the merrier. I only do 75% once a week on most tanks now days, back when I kept angels n Discus I changed 50% every day or so, finally dropped to 3X75% a week and that worked well for me even with the discus.

EDIT I missed a lot of this thread so don't pay me much mind. I would still do the wc while a tank is starting up but I have to catch up before anything I say is truly relevant.

[arnold]

Ok, we are all assuming that the ammonia is whats killing the fish, thats possible and maybe even probable but if these are LFS angels there is no telling what they brought home with them. Assuming the angels don't have anything else wrong w them, I still say 50 to 75% wc daily till things settle down. Adding more filtration is always good, and seasoned is the best of course. If its just ammonia cant you drop the ph down to around 5.5 where it is much less toxic? Thats if you are comfortable doing that and the other tank mates will be ok in that range, angels can and will be fine in 5.5. You could let the ph slowly come back up to what you usually have with water changes and by not recharging the ph lowering media, I use peat for that, probly too much trouble if your not used to using that. I'm just tossing ideas around on what I would do. Not to criticize, but I would not buy that many (if any) angels from a LFS, I would find a breeder, or add them at a slower rate and deal with issues as they arise. Ever since the discus/angel plague of 86', getting good clean angels n discus has been an issue.
Normally with a tank that size I would think you would have some breathing room even with the under filtration and stocking levels, as well as adding them too quickly. I really wonder if there isn't another reason for the die off.
Hard to tell off site.
Once in a galaxy far far away, I had about 10,000 young angels on the hoof, but I didn't have any black veils, so I picked up 6 from a LFS that looked REAL good n took em home, no QT. I found out later they were outa Singapore and were carrying hex or something, my ammonia went up I'm sure, tanks of dead fish do that. I lost all but one pr and 400 fry.:wha: I almost gave up on fish for good but I endeavored to persevere :hehe:.
I have more that rambled on nuff, babble babble etc..etc..
How do the fish look/act other than what you perceive as ammonia issue?

[fishyjoe24]

things are geting back to normal.

[lellison]

good, glad to hear

[flamenco-t]

keep track of the ammonia still. It may have come back down consume by nitrite and then nitrate. Nitrate DO NOT kill your fish, it'll slow down their grotwh and at this point your fish will be surviving rather than thriving.

It could be that you add too much fish, your bio filtration didn't have enough time to keep up and have excess ammonia that wasn't consume.

How many fish do you have now ? try to keep it to 2-3 max on lower bio load, feed them once every 3-4 days. Wait for about 3 days and add one more, keep the same regimen with feeding and you can add another one in 3 days and so on.

By doing the above, I guarantee that you won't have any un-consume ammonia that can spike and kill the rest of the tank.

Give some time for the bio filtration to catch up with the load of the tank.

It took my 240 2 weeks to complete the first cycle with firemouth and a convict. The I start adding 1 fish every 2 days. I started to feed them once every 4 days during the move.

stan