Rock Formations

[Uncle Bubba]

Can anybody out there tell me some deatils on how to make the rock formations like they use at the big aquariams. Does it take a special type of cement or paint to keep from being toxic.

[kewlkatdady]

alot of time I just stack my holy rock....
I you bury the bottom piece deep enough in the substrate it seems to work well...

Another thing that I "heard" of people doing is using silicone to hold the pieces together....

But make sure you let the silicone FULLY cure before it goes into the tank...I think it takes 24-48 hours.

HTH

[poel_19]

can you drill the rocks and use wooden dowels to hold them together??

[AndrewH]

Actually, concrete itself is toxic (sort of), but will somewhat detoxify over time. I think the general rule is build the concrete rock formation, then let it dry, and then let it soak. Soaking time depends on how long it takes for our water to stabilize (I think concrete releases calcium and magnesium into the water among other things). The chemicals in the concrete will eventually leach out, but I think it takes a while (say a month on a concrete background), but I can't be exactly sure how long.

I think XTC did a couple of concrete backgrounds, but I think they ended up breaking before he could get them done and soaked. He did a really nice write up, but I don't know if he still has it (I think I can get it if he gives me the ok)

Here's (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_aquarium_background3.php) a write up I really like. And below is a list of additional articles...

additional 1 (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_aquarium_background.php)
additional 2 (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_background.php)
additional 3 (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_aquarium_background2.php)
additional 4 (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/diy_ceramic_caves.php)

Also, I think you can epoxy over the concrete after it's dry and it will not leech toxins into the water, but then it's glossy and doesn't look very natural.

[kewlkatdady]

sounds like a lot of work....but I don't see why you couldn't...

I think that is alot of over kill...

As I said...I've never done anything other than stack them and I never had a rock fall.

Just use common sense when stacking.

[AndrewH]

I've heard of using fishing line.

[Uncle Bubba]

My goal is to make a background complete with caves, tunnels and rock ledges. If this works out then I'm gonna make a complete setup for the terrarium ideas.

[xtc]

I've played in this arena...you're best bet is trial and error. My cement background project sounds like what you're talkin about- it was too brittle and fell apart- and was still too heavy.

I think your best bet is to start with larger rocks and make sure they're firmly anchored- do it without water in the tank- you really need it anchored.

Bigger rocks is the key.

If you're going to have cichlids or other digging fish- do it BEFORE you put the substrate in, cause they'll dig out from under your rocks and it will shift in the tank and may fall. :eek:

There are a variety of backgrounds that look great- but can be costly.

There is only ONE glue I would suggest if you plan on gluing rocks together- it's 100% silicone. Silicone I at home depot NOT Silicone II.

more details- this is a good topic to discuss.

[kewlkatdady]

I agree with Chris that if you are going with cichlids...put the rocks down and then the substrate....


BUT BEFORE YOU DO EITHER OF those...put egg crate down to prevent the fish from digging to the bottom. There is a ton of info on egg crate...its really no big deal to put in and should take less that 15 minutes if you have a HUGE tank...

[Uncle Bubba]

If nothin else I'm pretty sure I can do what I want with plastic or plexi glass again for the rock formations them selves the caves and tunnels would just be a pain in the fanny.

What kind of paint works for in tank use.

[kewlkatdady]

krylon fusion is rattle can that is tank safe once completely cured.

[xtc]

I would LOVE to figure out a way to do all sorts of cool stuff with lite weight plastic- I just need to find someone smart enough/with the technology to make it happen.

Thoughts?

[Uncle Bubba]

Nothin hard about most of it for simple things. Just make a sand box the size you want to make the piece and deep enough to hold enough sand to hold your rocks in place that you are using for your forms. Leave the top of the rocks prutuding from the sand, this is your form. Spray all the surface area with cooking oil so the plastic doesn't stick to it, lay your plastic sheet over it and put it in the oven. This won't make deep crevaces but will give quit a bit of shape. Rough it up with sand paper and paint. It takes some experimenting to get the oven temps right and get the rocks to look right.

You can also use plaster cast to do this same thing with but it's more work.

In the commercial world plastic is injection molded while in a melted state or softened and pressed into shape with hydraulic presses.

[Uncle Bubba]

Would plater work better for this idea then cement. If it was sealed in a coat of paint would that keep it from breaking down.

To keep weight down you would just have to use a fine mesh metal screen for the form and mix the cement or plaster thick to stick to it. This way the final piece would be hollow on the back side and the coating would only be an inch or two thick.

[xtc]

There is an apoxy that I saw the other day at JFPs- He is creating exactly the kind of formation you're talking about for a new tank in the store (near the cash register). It's a new product and comes in a long narrow tube- it's a lot like silly puddy, you pull off a small piece, kneed it and stick it between the two rocks- it's aquarium safe too. I haven't seen the finished product- I'll see if I can get pics once the tank is up and running. Tube was between $5-10 dollars.

[AndrewH]

Dang, that's pretty reasonable. Definitely let us know once you find out more about it, or get some pictures.

Is it actually sticky, or does it just stick to the rocks when they're dry then is able to be put into the aquarium without loosing it's hold on the rocks, nor changing the water's chem?

[xtc]

yea- it was like silly putty. It's got a fishtanktype name- I can't remember it though...I'll ask Cahn

[Uncle Bubba]

I think I've found what I'm lookin for here. Check it out and give me your opinions. I'm lookin for somthing that will completely cover the back of the tank and part of the bottom similar to the picture in the site header. If I used real stone to do this it would be way to heavy. That's why I was thinkin concrete or plaster, this way it could all be hollow inside to cut down weight. But this plastic resin looks like the best way so far.

http://www.createforless.com/products/productDetail.asp?ProductID=82499&SI=ce124d86-f134-44f9-bc3d-f9fbb6b0bcbc

[xtc]

Holdfast by Marineland @ $10.99

[rolloffhill]

http://www.petsolutions.com/images/200/48144062.jpg
http://www.petsolutions.com/Aquastik-Epoxy-Putty+I48144062+C101664.aspx

[AndrewH]

I think I've found what I'm lookin for here. Check it out and give me your opinions. I'm lookin for somthing that will completely cover the back of the tank and part of the bottom similar to the picture in the site header. If I used real stone to do this it would be way to heavy. That's why I was thinkin concrete or plaster, this way it could all be hollow inside to cut down weight. But this plastic resin looks like the best way so far.

http://www.createforless.com/products/productDetail.asp?ProductID=82499&SI=ce124d86-f134-44f9-bc3d-f9fbb6b0bcbc

Yeah, that looks like it would do the trick, but $75 per gallon without the catalyst. Seems there'd be a cheaper way.

Maybe simple fiberglass with resin over real rocks/stones then remove the rocks so the FG has the shape?

[Uncle Bubba]

Fiberglass would work for semi flat areas but I'm lookin for something with lots of overhangs and shape. It would be impossible to get the fiberglass fabric into the crevises tight enough to make good egdes around the rocks, everything would come out just looking blended. And anyplace you don't get the fabric in comes out pretty fragile with just the resin. I also have done a lot of car restorations through the years and have found that I HATE FIBERGLASS MATERIAL. What a pain in the but that stuff is to mess with.

I'm hopin to use real rocks to make the surface I want and then make a plaster cast of it. Then use the paster cast with this material to make the final product. This stuff would have to be thick at all so a gallon would size container would be enough for a massive background or two.

[rolloffhill]

Sounds like a plan Dennis, how about a step by step DIY?? :D

[AndrewH]

I second that. This is something I'm definitely interested in seeing/reading about.

[Vivarium Concepts]

This article appeared in a recent addition of The Aquatic Gardener.

http://www.aquatic-gardeners.org/TAG20-1pg25-31.pdf

[AndrewH]

WOW, very interesting article.

Do you know anyone that has done this with products available in the US?

Seems like a cool way to do a background. I wonder what the costs are associated with a full rock background like in the last few pictures.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Andrew, there was a post on the AGA forum about a guy that was try to locate the products ( or the equivalent of ) here in the states. He was going to attemp this method. Let me see if I can locate the thread, and will post a link on here.
Even if the intial cost outlay was rather steep, I would think that you could reuse the molds. You could make some for your friends, put them in Christmas stockings, stuff like that.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Well that didn't take as long as I thought it would to locate.

Here is a link to the thread:

http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/viewtopic.php?t=754

I've made rocky type backgrounds before, using different methods, but they were not submerged!

[AndrewH]

Andrew, there was a post on the AGA forum about a guy that was try to locate the products ( or the equivalent of ) here in the states. He was going to attemp this method. Let me see if I can locate the thread, and will post a link on here.
Even if the intial cost outlay was rather steep, I would think that you could reuse the molds. You could make some for your friends, put them in Christmas stockings, stuff like that.

I think the peace of mind over knowing they won't tumble over and crack the glass or hurt the fish is enough to justify it. Not to mention, like you said, you still have the molds and could sell "rocks" to your fish keeping friends or what not. It also lends it's way to DIY caves if you start playing around with differnet voids in the casting.

Definitely a great idea with lots of benefits.

[AndrewH]

Well that didn't take as long as I thought it would to locate.

Here is a link to the thread:

http://forum.aquatic-gardeners.org/viewtopic.php?t=754

I've made rocky type backgrounds before, using different methods, but they were not submerged!

WOW, now that is a lot of info.

The only questions I have is, what material do you use to make the fake rocks (plaster I assume), and is that material aquarium safe? I know they state to coat the underside with epoxy to give it strength, but the entire thing needs to be fish friendly.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Andrew, keep in mind that in a terrarium/vivarium we will not have the background totally submerged.
Typically the quick easy way to do it is with Becketts Pond Foam. While it is a little on the pricey side, I prefer to work with this. Some people go cheap and use Great Stuff spray foam. We lay the tank on it's back, and spray the foam directly to the glass ( I do small sections at a time) and work it by hand as it skins over to form a 'rocky' looking structure. Thena after it has fully cure, (usally a day or two) we then cover it with a grout/ mortar.
Another option that we have used is fiberglass. West Systems fiberglass is the one everybody recommend for animal enclosures. It is rather pricey. The use the same method and coat the fiberglass once fully cured, with grout/ mortar. Some people are usng this method to make tree trunks and tree buttress. I have an artical somewhere by a friend the tell in detail how he made a tree buttress.
I will try to find it and post it later.
I would be very apprehensive about using a 'foam' product that is
going to be totally submerged due to the buoyancy.

I have never tried to make molds. I have a friend that casts objects and he is very familiar with the mold making process. He uses latex for his molds.

[EAST_TX_RN]

Cindy, could you posts some photos of the backgrounds you are talking about?

[Vivarium Concepts]

I will see if I have any pics of the backgrounds, but how do you post pictures?

[EAST_TX_RN]

If you have them in photobucket or something similar, just click on the little postcard at the top(above your message),copy and paste the link there. Otherwise, go "advanced" below your message, and upload the photos, but the photos have to be smaller that way. I bet someone could explain better than me, but try it!

[Vivarium Concepts]

Andrew,
here is the artical I was talking about.

http://www.bbrock.frognet.org/Making%20artificial%20trees%20and%20vines.pdf

This gives you an idea of one of the ways to do it.

[AndrewH]

Well my plan was to go for a FULLY submerged design like the guy from Finland did in his cichlid tank (the one that won).
(like these. these are his fake rocks fully submerged)
http://showcase.aquatic-gardeners.org/Img2006/View/258.jpg

I plan to attempt this soon (as in before the end of the decade :D), but still need lots of research to make sure all the materials are fully submerged, aquarium safe.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Found this.


http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1&item=270174921227&ssPageName=STRK:MEWA:IT&ih=017

[poel_19]

thats good stuff!!! if someone does this lemme know i wanna see this in action

[Vivarium Concepts]

We thought you could be the guinea pig!

[poel_19]

i have no talent to do that type of thing!!! Well i do, but I haven't done anything remotely as intense as this!!!

[Vivarium Concepts]

But wait.......there's more!

http://www.rockandwater.com/texturepadsrockkits.htm

[poel_19]

those molds are a little pricey....but sweet looking!

[mongo]

I read an article in a science magazine where they were using a type of special concrete to help replace coral reefs. They would take a large box filled with sand and just use their hands to make rocks, crevices and caves in the damp sand. Then they would just pour the mixture into the depression and let it cure. It was not toxic and could be "cemented" directly to the reef to provide new "live rock" surface for organisms to populate. I cant remember which magazine...maybe National Geographic but Im not sure. The list of ingredients of the concrete was things that were non-toxic. If I can find the article I will post a link. But if you used large boxes of sand and made thin pieces you could make concrete backgrounds that could be siliconed to the back of the tank. I think they were just letting the sand be the surface of the rock. This may not be what you are looking for, but it would work for making nice base rocks to stack other rocks on. And you could make them in any size or shape you could imagine. Using regular concrete you would have to let it leach for a while, but it would be cool to use the same colored sand you have in your tanks.

[ElijahTurtle]

Mongo I believe that is the Agrocrete stuff made by GARF.org
It's a mixture of Aragonite & cement or something like that.

[EAST_TX_RN]

Oh my Cindy! I love the products that website is selling! Will anyone with free time to spare come make me a patio out of the fossil stamps and concrete? Please?

[AndrewH]

The main problem I have with concrete, is the fact that even after it leaches it'll still make the water hard with a high pH.

I'm wanting to use a different material, something inert if possible.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Andrew,
have you seen this artical?

http://www.thekrib.com/TankHardware/concrete.html

[AndrewH]

I did some looking and it seem the "Thorite" by Thoro no longer exists, but that company does make a product called WaterPlug (http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_waterproofing.htm) which Ace Hardware (http://www.acehardware.com/product/index.jsp?productId=1381713&cp&kw=waterplug&origkw=WaterPlug&sr=1) sells for $8-$18. If you read the product info on WaterPlug is says "Safe for Drinking Water" and in the applications has Ponds listed.

I'll definitely have to look into this further!

[Vivarium Concepts]

Typically 'water plug' is a type of hydralic cement.
But it's worth a shot.

[AndrewH]

I sit corrected. "Thorite" - very bottom of the page (http://www.thoroproducts.com/products_concrete.htm) is still made by Thoro.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Cool! Now we just need to find it!

[AndrewH]

:) working on that as we type

[poel_19]

any luck??

[AndrewH]

Found a company here in Fort Worth (and a location in Irving) that has it but they don't list a price.

I'll see if I can locate a site with a price to get an idea.

http://www.alliedbuilding.com/products/productDetail.asp?ProductID=30700700

[AndrewH]

Seems it's been labeled as a "Contractor" only product and the general public can't buy it. I'll call Allied Building Products tomorrow to see about getting a price and to verify that it can't be purchased by the public.

If it's relatively cheap I'll have one of my contractor friends (whom has a contractor's license) pick up a bag.

If it's too expensive, I'll probably try the WaterPlug stuff.

[mongo]

What about this idea...take a large box of say black moon sand or even pool filter sand. Inbed rocks and pebbles in the sand. Then take some two part epoxy pour, the kind you can buy realativly cheap and pour it into your mold. Let the epoxy harden and lift it out of the mold. The sand and pebbles should have stuck to the liquid epoxy. You could do several pieces that could be siliconed to the back wall. If you used a contrasting colored sand for the substrate, it would look kind of cool.

[mongo]

What about this idea...take a large box of say black moon sand or even pool filter sand. Inbed rocks and pebbles in the sand. Then take some two part epoxy pour, the kind you can buy realativly cheap and pour it into your mold. Let the epoxy harden and lift it out of the mold. The sand and pebbles should have stuck to the liquid epoxy. You could do several pieces that could be siliconed to the back wall. If you used a contrasting colored sand for the substrate, it would look kind of cool.

[AndrewH]

I think the main idea here is to save weight.

Would your idea be mostly sand or epoxy?

[mongo]

epoxy

[AndrewH]

Hmmmm.... after you made your statement it got me thinking about 100% fiberglass rocks.

What about doing fiberglass over a rock and then sprinkling sand over the epoxy as it dries?

Lots of options...

[Vivarium Concepts]

Andrew,
I've been looking at this as a possibility.
http://www.polygem.com/zoo/sculpting.php

[Catherine]

Wow Cindy!! Do you use those in your frog setups? It looks like an amazing medium.

[Vivarium Concepts]

Catherine, we haven't had the opportunity to work with this.........yet.

[AndrewH]

Andrew,
I've been looking at this as a possibility.
http://www.polygem.com/zoo/sculpting.php (http://www.polygem.com/zoo/sculpting.php)


I can't find any prices. Have you called them to get a quote?





P.S. check this (http://www.wildsky.net/vivarium/evivariu.htm) out if you didn't already know about it :D

[Vivarium Concepts]

I've got the pricelist somewhere, let me dig for it, but it's not cheap!

WildSky is a nice site, I like this

http://home.wanadoo.nl/v.a.kroon/terracom/main.htm

also. Even though it's in Dutch, you know the old saying ' A picture is worth a thousand words'.
Click on the peoples names in the left hand side of the page.