Hybrid rant

[Sigmar]

I've been seeing a lot of hybrids up for sale, not just here but other forums as well. Do you people have any clue what your doing to the gene pool? Yea right now your getting a few colorful fish cheap but eventually they're gonna look like crap and I'm of course talking many yrs down the road. Right now at a lfs a sunshine peacock goes for around $35 but 10 yrs from now because of all these hybrids that fish will run you 3 times that. Due to it will be rarer to find pure strains. Imho those that allow hybrids to breed, buy em, sell em, are doing a MAJOR disservice to the industry and hobby. This is just as bad as dying fish another color. Either destroy em or feed em to other fish but don't spread them around.

[Oliphant]

I agree Sigmar. There are too many hybrids out there now, but until we get some responsible hobbyist they will continue to be present.
Posted via Mobile Device

[Haiven]

Amen!

[greeneyed]

X4!

[traphik02]

to be honest i think your an idiot not to be mean but im pretty sure not everyone is breeding hybrids its not like people wake up in the morning and say "oh hey im gonna breed a millon hybrid" yeaaa. noo your making a big deal when its not. maybe people like colors? and if you like non hybrids then thats on you you dont have to be a girl about it

[alpuche]

that was unnecessary

[greeneyed]

to be honest i think your an idiot not to be mean but im pretty sure not everyone is breeding hybrids its not like people wake up in the morning and say "oh hey im gonna breed a millon hybrid" yeaaa. noo your making a big deal when its not. maybe people like colors? and if you like non hybrids then thats on you you dont have to be a girl about it

No need to come on here bashing a respected member of this community.
Obviously you are new to the hobby.
Hybridization does not make more colorful fish. The opposite is true. Within a couple of generations, they will be a muddy brown mess.
And while it does happen, a responsible fish keeper will let nature takes it course or euthanize the offspring.
But selling a known hybrid is very irresponsible.

[Thresher]

:soapbox:


People are going to do what they are going to do. You can't change that. People also have their own preferences and if you want a hybrid fish I don't think anyone has the right to stop you. I can't say I agree with breeding hybrids but I have seen some gorgeous hybrid fish. Ignorance has a lot to do with it, but that doesn't mean these people are going to screw up the whole gene pool in the world and make full bred sunshine peacocks "rare" . There will always be full/pure bred fish to be able to get a hold of from a local hobbyist. Most people on here know what they are looking for anyways and wouldn't buy a fish that looked skeptical.

[Venom SS]

Responsibilty takes a sideline to the all mighty dollar in this country. Untill it stops making money, it will never stop. We are programed to suck every dime out of anything willing to give it up, at all costs. Sad but true. Whats even more sad, is the people that are willing to try and preserve purity, are a fast dieng breed. Too many people will "look the other way" if they stand to make a buck.

[misplacedsooner]

hybrids..bad
pure strain...good

i have bought whole batches of hybrid fry to use as feeders. ive also had suspected hybrids that were nice fish but they stayed in my tank and were not for sale.
to the people that think its ok, please do some...alot of research before you spout out about how great hybrids are. yes, some can be striking but be responsible.

[EZfish]

to be honest i think your an idiot

Name calling is not really needed. Just disagree simple as that.

Yes, a few hybrids now and then will not pollute and entire gene pool. But! If more and more people breeding fish take that approach just to make a colorful fish, over time the gene pool will go down hill. Especially if the number of people breeding hybrids out grows the number of people bringing in wild caught natural occurring specimens. If you do happen to get hybrids and you like them so be it but I think the point Sigmar was making is don’t take those fish and sell them to people or worse you’re LFS.

[Sigmar]

to be honest i think your an idiot not to be mean but im pretty sure not everyone is breeding hybrids its not like people wake up in the morning and say "oh hey im gonna breed a millon hybrid" yeaaa. noo your making a big deal when its not. maybe people like colors? and if you like non hybrids then thats on you you dont have to be a girl about it

I promise you wouldn't talk to me in person like this but once:flipa:

[jammmm]

I've been seeing a lot of hybrids up for sale, not just here but other forums as well. Do you people have any clue what your doing to the gene pool? Yea right now your getting a few colorful fish cheap but eventually they're gonna look like crap and I'm of course talking many yrs down the road. Right now at a lfs a sunshine peacock goes for around $35 but 10 yrs from now because of all these hybrids that fish will run you 3 times that. Due to it will be rarer to find pure strains. Imho those that allow hybrids to breed, buy em, sell em, are doing a MAJOR disservice to the industry and hobby. This is just as bad as dying fish another color. Either destroy em or feed em to other fish but don't spread them around.


I understand your sentiment, but differ on the sale or distribution of hybrid fish. First of all, we need to make a distinction between several levels of hybrid: breeding between totally different species (blood parrot), breeding between same genus (different varieties of mbuna, etc), and line breeding (selective breeding). I am against number 1, but number 2 and 3 happens quite a bit in our hobby and I don't think it has caused any decrease in the distribution of pure line species. If we are against 2 and 3, we should not even allow people to sell OB peacocks, dragons blood, fire peacock, etc. Many of these peacocks are hybrid. When I first got into raising african cichlids, I bought some cichlids from Keller Farms, Petsmart, that turned out to be hybrids. I think that the number of uninformed fish buyers here in the US really outweigh the number of hobbyist who know and can appreciate a true line species. The african cichlid industry I am sure has been around longer then I've been born (I am 42) and during this time, I don't think that the distribution of hybrids has differed any. I think that with us selling hybrids where we actually state to the buyer that they are hybrids provides several things: 1) informs the casual buyer that there is such a thing as pure line species 2) offers really nice looking cichlids to the casual buyer at a substantial savings from Keller's Farm, Petsmart 3) We don't kill a living animal (Just imagine if there were folks that believed we should kill all mutt dogs and cats) ...Just my differing opinion.

[Vividcichlids]

I happen to agree with both sides to a degree. I think we can all agree that "hybridization" occurs all the time in the wild. It is called evolution. Two fish mate and form an abnormal gene that is beneficial to the fish and darwinism takes hold and the entire polulation forms this gene over several generations. If it is a "bad" gene, darwinism takes hold and the fish is killed. Many new species are found and recognized in the wild on a yearly basis. Am I to believe that no one has found this species before over hundreds of thousands of years, or is it more realistic to believe that two species crossbred to form a new one in the wild. I personally will believe the later. So if it is agreed that this happens in wild, it leads to the next question: How are we, as hobbiests, to handle crossbreeding in our aquariums? The answer lies in between the grey area in my opinion. Try to take every precaution as a responsible hobbiest to prevent this from happening. If it still occurs, do what you feel is morally right. Keep the fish, cull the fish, sell the fish, etc..... But please if the fish leave your tank, do not pawn them off as pure bred fish, or say they are something they are not. As a breeder myself, I have only had 1 group of crossbred fish. I immediately seperated the adult fish and put the babies in a tank by themselves for my enjoyment. They are actually very beautiful fish, but they never saw light outside of my house.

[Typical Tony]

:soapbox:


People are going to do what they are going to do. You can't change that. People also have their own preferences and if you want a hybrid fish I don't think anyone has the right to stop you. I can't say I agree with breeding hybrids but I have seen some gorgeous hybrid fish. Ignorance has a lot to do with it, but that doesn't mean these people are going to screw up the whole gene pool in the world and make full bred sunshine peacocks "rare" . There will always be full/pure bred fish to be able to get a hold of from a local hobbyist. Most people on here know what they are looking for anyways and wouldn't buy a fish that looked skeptical.

Responsibilty takes a sideline to the all mighty dollar in this country. Untill it stops making money, it will never stop. We are programed to suck every dime out of anything willing to give it up, at all costs. Sad but true. Whats even more sad, is the people that are willing to try and preserve purity, are a fast dieng breed. Too many people will "look the other way" if they stand to make a buck.

I happen to agree with both sides to a degree. I think we can all agree that "hybridization" occurs all the time in the wild. It is called evolution. Two fish mate and form an abnormal gene that is beneficial to the fish and darwinism takes hold and the entire polulation forms this gene over several generations. If it is a "bad" gene, darwinism takes hold and the fish is killed. Many new species are found and recognized in the wild on a yearly basis. Am I to believe that no one has found this species before over hundreds of thousands of years, or is it more realistic to believe that two species crossbred to form a new one in the wild. I personally will believe the later. So if it is agreed that this happens in wild, it leads to the next question: How are we, as hobbiests, to handle crossbreeding in our aquariums? The answer lies in between the grey area in my opinion. Try to take every precaution as a responsible hobbiest to prevent this from happening. If it still occurs, do what you feel is morally right. Keep the fish, cull the fish, sell the fish, etc..... But please if the fish leave your tank, do not pawn them off as pure bred fish, or say they are something they are not. As a breeder myself, I have only had 1 group of crossbred fish. I immediately seperated the adult fish and put the babies in a tank by themselves for my enjoyment. They are actually very beautiful fish, but they never saw light outside of my house.

:exactly:

[Vividcichlids]

The funny thing is that this topic surfaces every 3 to 6 months. The same arguements are presented by the same people and everyone leaves with their feathers ruffled but nothing changes. Just as a side note, and I hope I am not hijacking your thread, (if I am please, just delete this post,) could people post if their thoughts or views have changed one way or the other. Just curious.

[KingBichir]

hybrids are no good. if i do happen to get a hybrids i feed them or keep them in my tank

[Sigmar]

I understand your sentiment, but differ on the sale or distribution of hybrid fish. First of all, we need to make a distinction between several levels of hybrid: breeding between totally different species (blood parrot), breeding between same genus (different varieties of mbuna, etc), and line breeding (selective breeding). I am against number 1, but number 2 and 3 happens quite a bit in our hobby and I don't think it has caused any decrease in the distribution of pure line species. If we are against 2 and 3, we should not even allow people to sell OB peacocks, dragons blood, fire peacock, etc. Many of these peacocks are hybrid. When I first got into raising african cichlids, I bought some cichlids from Keller Farms, Petsmart, that turned out to be hybrids. I think that the number of uninformed fish buyers here in the US really outweigh the number of hobbyist who know and can appreciate a true line species. The african cichlid industry I am sure has been around longer then I've been born (I am 42) and during this time, I don't think that the distribution of hybrids has differed any. I think that with us selling hybrids where we actually state to the buyer that they are hybrids provides several things: 1) informs the casual buyer that there is such a thing as pure line species 2) offers really nice looking cichlids to the casual buyer at a substantial savings from Keller's Farm, Petsmart 3) We don't kill a living animal (Just imagine if there were folks that believed we should kill all mutt dogs and cats) ...Just my differing opinion.

defin. n 1. the offspring of two animals (http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/animals) or plants of different breeds, varieties, species, or genera, especially as produced through human manipulation for specific genetic characteristics.
Producing the parrot fish is a good example of whats wrong with it, issues with the mouth from my understanding. As someone else stated you keep on breeding hybrids and eventually you come up with a fish of muddy color. Yes some are quite beautiful, I love the blueberry peacock but I won't breed for them. In the wild natural selection takes care of hybrids and I don't think it happens as often as some think. Usually takes hundreds of years for a new species to show up while we can do it in one breeding. Now as for 2 and 3 it can cause issues if you don't start out with a big enough gene pool. Anyway all this is just my personal opinion and not meant to solicit personal attacks on anyone.

[JMatthew]

The funny thing is that this topic surfaces every 3 to 6 months. The same arguements are presented by the same people and everyone leaves with their feathers ruffled but nothing changes. Just as a side note, and I hope I am not hijacking your thread, (if I am please, just delete this post,) could people post if their thoughts or views have changed one way or the other. Just curious.

Actually, these threads DO change things. It was reading similiar threads when I first got into the hobby that help me to form my own perspective on the topic.

[Pepper]

I'll keep fish weather they are ugly or not.
I like fish just as I like dogs. I don't care what they look like or where the come from.

[Sigmar]

I'll keep fish weather they are ugly or not.
I like fish just as I like dogs. I don't care what they look like or where the come from.

Just as easy and costs the same to feed to like pure strains. You can experiment with pure strains too. By breeding to enhance a particular color or finnage attribute. Anyway again just an opinion. I see the day when wild caught will be almost impossible to get if they survive at all. Already the lakes in Africa are in danger from invasive species and pollution. Mark my words it will be at the point where you'll only be able to get fish from breeders. Good example the passenger pigeon. At one time they would literally black out the sun flying and crack oak limbs when roosting there were so many. Now there are zero. Breeding programs were set up too late to save them.

[traphik02]

im sorry if i disrespected you in anyway.

[Pepper]

I completely agree with your "rant." BUT, instead of ranting about it maybe it would be more benificial to post guidelines for what one should do to avoid cross breeding. I for one would appreciate that because I do not want to add to the problem and to be honest I don't know how to avoid it. I have tried to research it but it is kind of hard to find good information and sometimes hard to understand. My cichlids are babies now and from what I have found out I shouldn't have much cross breeding I don't think. But I don't know.

[Thresher]

Just as easy and costs the same to feed to like pure strains. You can experiment with pure strains too. By breeding to enhance a particular color or finnage attribute. Anyway again just an opinion. I see the day when wild caught will be almost impossible to get if they survive at all. Already the lakes in Africa are in danger from invasive species and pollution. Mark my words it will be at the point where you'll only be able to get fish from breeders. Good example the passenger pigeon. At one time they would literally black out the sun flying and crack oak limbs when roosting there were so many. Now there are zero. Breeding programs were set up too late to save them.


Maybe its just easier for you to be pessimistic about things. Where is your breeding program?

Also cichlids will inhabit Africa as long as we are on this earth. Nobody here will see the day they disappear.

[Sigmar]

I completely agree with your "rant." BUT, instead of ranting about it maybe it would be more benificial to post guidelines for what one should do to avoid cross breeding. I for one would appreciate that because I do not want to add to the problem and to be honest I don't know how to avoid it. I have tried to research it but it is kind of hard to find good information and sometimes hard to understand. My cichlids are babies now and from what I have found out I shouldn't have much cross breeding I don't think. But I don't know.

Well African breeders chime in as I'm more of a SA person. Examples would be helpful. I think one of the things is like colors or patterns are to be avoided in the same tank. Someone correct me if I'm wrong.

Sigmar added 0 Minutes and 42 Seconds later...

im sorry if i disrespected you in anyway.


We're good

[bluenautilus2]

While capitalism fails us in many respects it will probably save us in this instance. In a few generations when the hybrids will look like a muddy mess, people will stop buying them and start looking for purebreds again. As purebreds become more profitable, more people will breed them correctly, and there will be more available and the price will drop. Until someone makes some new hybrids... it will oscillate back and forth, probably.
Whether hybridization is right or wrong, I wouldn't worry too much about losing our good purbred strains.

[biggin]

As long as there is money in doing it cheaply it will be done. As long as Petsmart, Petco, Walmart are buying the cheapest thing they can get and people are thinking "OH, a fish tank that would be cool..." as they are walking through the grocery section of Walmart... (not bashing the people it is where MOST people in the hobby start)

Second, as long as US is the 3rd or 4th fish market, we will continue to get fish that are not quite as interesting. We see a fraction of the fish hit our shores that Japan (I think they are getting less now and that is why we have been seeing some better stuff) and Germany are getting more stuff, we will be prey to mass breeding and that means... more hybrids.

As long as Japan, and the mass of buyers (that make the US hobby look like a drop in the bucket) want them... they will be here.

Whoever said that most of it is an education problem, I do think that is SOME of the issue in the US market. The big box stores are certainly not going to pay more for the fish, most people look at their prices now and cringe. There is a direct correlation to money and the issue as well, the people's willingness to spend the money drives the big boxes. Go check out shops like Rift to Reef, the prices are higher than Petco (sorry Dane, but I assume you know it is true and are not looking to change it), but he has a much higher quality of fish. 2 different markets really, one is going to be the group looking for pure bred and quality the other is looking for a fish.

[Sigmar]

Maybe its just easier for you to be pessimistic about things. Where is your breeding program?

Also cichlids will inhabit Africa as long as we are on this earth. Nobody here will see the day they disappear.

Perhaps you need to do a little research on the Africans habitat. The introduction of Nile perch, tilapia ect for a human food sources has scientists concerned. The theres the pollution caused by the human populations that are growing along its banks. Do you truly believe that the environment is self sustaining no matter what we do to it? Yea we may not get to see the damage we do to it but our kids will, be a little more far sighted or do you work for a major corp ? As to my breeding programs I have 2, I'm working with l46 plecos which will soon become endangered due to dams being built and importation restrictions. My second program are pundamila sp redflanks, I have a group of 23 juvies I'm waiting to get of age to breed. Theres very few in the US breeding them. So yea buddy I not only talk it but walk it at considerable expence at times. I believe in making a positive contribution, so since you chose to call me out on my breeding programs without knowing anything about me what are you doing to make a positive contribution, hmmmmm/

[Pepper]

Perhaps you need to do a little research on the Africans habitat. The introduction of Nile perch, tilapia ect for a human food sources has scientists concerned. The theres the pollution caused by the human populations that are growing along its banks. Do you truly believe that the environment is self sustaining no matter what we do to it? Yea we may not get to see the damage we do to it but our kids will, be a little more far sighted or do you work for a major corp ? As to my breeding programs I have 2, I'm working with l46 plecos which will soon become endangered due to dams being built and importation restrictions. My second program are pundamila sp redflanks, I have a group of 23 juvies I'm waiting to get of age to breed. Theres very few in the US breeding them. So yea buddy I not only talk it but walk it at considerable expence at times. I believe in making a positive contribution, so since you chose to call me out on my breeding programs without knowing anything about me what are you doing to make a positive contribution, hmmmmm/


I don't think he was trying to "call you out" and I really doubt you are changing anyone's opinion by going about it this way. Just do your thing, man. Who cares. Don't make threads that will end up in arguments. It makes me not want to come on here anymore.

[cichlidkeeper]

Also cichlids will inhabit Africa as long as we are on this earth. Nobody here will see the day they disappear.

Thats funny, because there are victorian species that are years away from never being seen again in the wild

[Hay Burner]

Perhaps you need to do a little research on the Africans habitat. The introduction of Nile perch, tilapia ect for a human food sources has scientists concerned. The theres the pollution caused by the human populations that are growing along its banks. Do you truly believe that the environment is self sustaining no matter what we do to it? Yea we may not get to see the damage we do to it but our kids will, be a little more far sighted or do you work for a major corp ? As to my breeding programs I have 2, I'm working with l46 plecos which will soon become endangered due to dams being built and importation restrictions. My second program are pundamila sp redflanks, I have a group of 23 juvies I'm waiting to get of age to breed. Theres very few in the US breeding them. So yea buddy I not only talk it but walk it at considerable expence at times. I believe in making a positive contribution, so since you chose to call me out on my breeding programs without knowing anything about me what are you doing to make a positive contribution, hmmmmm/

You had me to here why the need to resort to insults?
As if working for a major corporation really has any bearing on this discussion.

[zoohouse]

It really all comes to the argument of AKC vs Animal shelter mutt. I try not to breed mutts in my tanks, but it happens. I don't ever pass them off as something unless I know for sure. And yes I have a fahaka puffer "garbage disposer" to take care of deformities. If you cross breed then make a line of it with it's own name ie.. Flowerhorn, BloodParrot, Koi, you get the idea. Some may argue that it is hard to get pure tx cichlid because of the flowerhorns but it opens up a market to the breeders that take pride in the fish that nature made. I like pure bred fish but I do have some exceptions. Biggin said it right that it all comes down to the benjamins.

[Sigmar]

You had me to here why the need to resort to insults?
As if working for a major corporation really has any bearing on this discussion.

No insult intended just verifying your mindset based on what you said earlier.

Sigmar added 15 Minutes and 16 Seconds later...

I don't think he was trying to "call you out" and I really doubt you are changing anyone's opinion by going about it this way. Just do your thing, man. Who cares. Don't make threads that will end up in arguments. It makes me not want to come on here anymore.


Arguments can be made out of any post. this is just good healthy debate (as long as no one resorts to name calling). We all agree to disagree. However this thread also can serve to educate people, the "who cares" comment is part of the problem imho and who knows maybe someones eyes will open. :hehe: Its actually good to see so many passionate about the hobby regardless of which side of the fence they are

[Hay Burner]

While capitalism fails us in many respects it will probably save us in this instance. In a few generations when the hybrids will look like a muddy mess, people will stop buying them and start looking for purebreds again. As purebreds become more profitable, more people will breed them correctly, and there will be more available and the price will drop. Until someone makes some new hybrids... it will oscillate back and forth, probably.
Whether hybridization is right or wrong, I wouldn't worry too much about losing our good purbred strains.

As long as there is money in doing it cheaply it will be done. As long as Petsmart, Petco, Walmart are buying the cheapest thing they can get and people are thinking "OH, a fish tank that would be cool..." as they are walking through the grocery section of Walmart... (not bashing the people it is where MOST people in the hobby start)

Second, as long as US is the 3rd or 4th fish market, we will continue to get fish that are not quite as interesting. We see a fraction of the fish hit our shores that Japan (I think they are getting less now and that is why we have been seeing some better stuff) and Germany are getting more stuff, we will be prey to mass breeding and that means... more hybrids.

As long as Japan, and the mass of buyers (that make the US hobby look like a drop in the bucket) want them... they will be here.

Whoever said that most of it is an education problem, I do think that is SOME of the issue in the US market. The big box stores are certainly not going to pay more for the fish, most people look at their prices now and cringe. There is a direct correlation to money and the issue as well, the people's willingness to spend the money drives the big boxes. Go check out shops like Rift to Reef, the prices are higher than Petco (sorry Dane, but I assume you know it is true and are not looking to change it), but he has a much higher quality of fish. 2 different markets really, one is going to be the group looking for pure bred and quality the other is looking for a fish.

These two say it the best.

No insult intended just verifying your mindset based on what you said earlier.

Sigmar added 15 Minutes and 16 Seconds later...




Arguments can be made out of any post. this is just good healthy debate (as long as no one resorts to name calling). We all agree to disagree. However this thread also can serve to educate people, the "who cares" comment is part of the problem imho and who knows maybe someones eyes will open. :hehe: Its actually good to see so many passionate about the hobby regardless of which side of the fence they are

Since that was my first post in this thread you are not really verifying my mindset. I have worked for a major corporations and have been a small business owner, now I work for a small company that does contract work for large corporations. My mindset on this is as follows: hybrids do have a place it is up to the individual to figure out that place, be it feeder or pet. Biggin stated there are those that are just looking for a fish, and there are those who want a specific fish. It is up to the individual to know what they are buying. Personally if I like what I see then it goes in the tank I am not out to breed these guys.
That is not a "corporate" mindset.

[Haiven]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion and I'm hoping that the focus of this thread will move away from insults/justifications.

We've seen similar heated discussions about tattooed/dyed fish.

[greeneyed]

Hope you don't mind, I changed the spelling on the title.

[jammmm]

I just want to show some pictures of hybrids that I once had. They were beautiful. When I sold them, I mentioned that they were hybrids so the buyer new what they were getting. I am definitely glad they went to someone who wanted to raise them as opposed to killing them or feeding them. I tried it once basically killing all these hybrids and I felt guilty for killing those fish; so I would rather pass them on to folks who want to raise cichlids and don't really care what they are.

http://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/14/88/78/23/img_4816.jpghttp://i78.servimg.com/u/f78/14/88/78/23/img_5113.jpghttp://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/14/88/78/23/img_5113.jpghttp://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/14/88/78/23/img_5211.jpghttp://i68.servimg.com/u/f68/14/88/78/23/img_5210.jpg

[JMatthew]

Maybe its just easier for you to be pessimistic about things. Where is your breeding program?

Also cichlids will inhabit Africa as long as we are on this earth. Nobody here will see the day they disappear.

Hundreds of species of African Cichilids have already been rendered extinct.

[cichlidkeeper]

I'm alright with hybrids to some extent, as long as people are aware of what they are/ what was crossed to make them. The thing I can't stand is if hybrids are sold as pure or if hybrids are further bred. THAT is what kills gene lines and the hobby.

If you need examples of hybrids, go check out Petco, Petsmarts, or Walmarts tanks. (Not to bash. The first two are much better than walmart in the aspect of having less hybrids.)

[Pepper]

Hope you don't mind, I changed the spelling on the title.

Lol. It bothered me too.

[OOwl]

Thank you for fixing the spelling in the title of this thread. I bothered me, too.

Aren't strawberry peacocks hybrids? If so, I have "sinned," as well, by keeping them. I'm one of those pet people that just likes pretty fish but really has no interest (or time) to raise them. So, I guess there ARE places for the inevitable "mixed breed" offspring of fish kept together that CAN crossbreed and often do.

Just curious, but in a tank of mixed Africans, for example, how would you keep them from breeding if an odd couple should form? Or is the entire point of this post to advise disposal of all offspring from such a pairing? If so, what about a tank full of rock where some of those survived. Can of worms. . . .

[greeneyed]

You can do an all male tank, or research and get fish that can cross breed.

[Sigmar]

You can do an all male tank, or research and get fish that can cross breed.


Thats the point, not to allow crossbreeding between species. An all male tank of course would work. Was hoping some others more knowledgeable would chime in on ways to prevent hybrids. Got the spelling right didn't I:tease: I do think, tho NOT INTENTIONAL, that sometimes the selling of them is misleading for the inexperienced hobbyist. Heres how and just an example, the ob peacock, official sounding name to me, but hybrid. Someone inexperienced I would bet is thinking hes getting a natural pure breed fish. Anyway someone give examples on how set up a tank so this wouldn't happen ie an example of breeds that can be kept together

[Rift2Reef]

I personally am 100% against the sell or production of known hybrids. You won't see Parrot Cichlids, Flowerhorns or anything like that in our tanks.

We hardly mix Lake Malawi with Tanganyika. Do I lose business as a result? Sure. It doesn't make or break me. I'd rather educate people on the downfalls than make a quick buck off of them.

Hybrids RARELY occur in nature. When is the last time someone discovered a new type of Tropheus? Or a new type of Mbuna? Albino fish don't really occur in nature either. Nature has a way of consuming things that do not belong.

The probability of a new species developing as a result one hybrid spawn in the wild is probably worse odds than me winning mega millions for 300 million dollars.

Let's say that two fish interbreed and have a spawn of 50 fish...With the wild survival rates you'd be lucky to get 5 to adult hood. Then those would have to breed and then the offspring would have to breed and so on. It doesn't happen. Only in controlled environments(that we control) do these sort of things happen.

99% of the new species coming out of Tanganyika or Malawi or simply a result of the lakes being so big and not having the researchers present looking for them.

A Parrot Cichlid or Flowerhorn would never naturally occur. I think in the case that you knowingly have mixbred offspring euthanizing them is the best method. I may catch hell from some but as aquarists I feel it's our responsibility to provide fish with the best possible care that we can. Polluting the hobby with hybridized fish does no one any good.

Unfortunately most of these "hybrids" are created in the Asian markets and end up over here. Some people like them and some stores continue to support them and until the stores take a hard line this type of stuff will continue.

Blake I have no problem with your comment about prices because it's true. You get what you pay for.

Conversely we have africans that no one else does and the ones that do charge 2x and 3x more than we do for lesser quality fish.

[greeneyed]

You can do an all male tank, or research and get fish that can cross breed.
*can't

[cichlidtim]

yup there was once 600 plus species in lake victoria now there is around 2-3 hundred thats a huge loss considering it happened in about the last 10-15 yrs

[bluenautilus2]

You can do an all male tank, or research and get fish that can cross breed.

heh, I can't even get two fish of the same species to get it on, let alone other species! :p

[greeneyed]

Not enough Barry White and cowbell....

[Haiven]

I just can't get enough cowbell!

[Squirrel]

When we say "hybid" here, is that like platies with swordtails or red wag platies with panda platies...?

[niko]

JMatthew,

Not to hijack this thread but is your signature line from some movie about corporate America? It looks like a CEO would say:
"I am Yulaw! I am nobody's b*tch! You are mine. I don't need to know you. You only need to know me."

By the way I worked for a huge company and every so often if you risked being in the same elevator with the big boss he'd say:
"What have you done for me today? How much money have you made me?"

Thing is - it was not a joke. He meant it. The donkeyhole was vocal about how he felt about employees. And I started to believe that many "big bosses" feel the same way but don't say it.

So you see why I asked.

--Nikolay

[cichlidkeeper]

When we say "hybid" here, is that like platies with swordtails or red wag platies with panda platies...?

platy x swordtail, breeding of species that aren't naturally meant to breed

[JMatthew]

Lol - no, it's from Jet Li's movie "The One." Jet's last scene, last lines as he prepares to kick the ass of an entire prison planet in lone hand-to-hand combat.

JMatthew,

Not to hijack this thread but is your signature line from some movie about corporate America? It looks like a CEO would say:
"I am Yulaw! I am nobody's b*tch! You are mine. I don't need to know you. You only need to know me."

By the way I worked for a huge company and every so often if you risked being in the same elevator with the big boss he'd say:
"What have you done for me today? How much money have you made me?"

Thing is - it was not a joke. He meant it. The donkeyhole was vocal about how he felt about employees. And I started to believe that many "big bosses" feel the same way but don't say it.

So you see why I asked.

--Nikolay

[Squirrel]

platy x swordtail, breeding of species that aren't naturally meant to breed
Oh, alright, then I think I see your point that it shouldn't happen though I had alot of these in my very first tank, I didn't notice what was going on until I had like 50 "half-swords" as I called them. It was an accident. :hehe: I don't think having these (hybrids) occur in the home aquarium are much to worry about, but I understand that they should not normally be put up for sale. These can't normally breed with each other anyway, right? Aren't most hybrids sterile?

[JMatthew]

In much of the animal world hybrid offspring are sterile (such as the mule), however normally not so with fish.

[cichlidkeeper]

Yeah, I never figured how that happens, but some hybrids will be sterile and some can actually breed. Fish are wierd in many ways. Two fish in different genuses can breed and produce offspring, but as I recall, very few or none other animals can do that.

[jnjholding]

platy x swordtail, breeding of species that aren't naturally meant to breed

Oh, alright, then I think I see your point that it shouldn't happen though I had alot of these in my very first tank, I didn't notice what was going on until I had like 50 "half-swords" as I called them. It was an accident. :hehe: I don't think having these (hybrids) occur in the home aquarium are much to worry about, but I understand that they should not normally be put up for sale. These can't normally breed with each other anyway, right? Aren't most hybrids sterile?

Most of the 'hybrids' that are making hobbiest unhappy are those that are practically manufactured in Asia, such as Flowerhorns, Parrot Fish etc...

Then you get other manufactured hybrids like O.B. Peacocks. So, we have people that buy up O.B. Peacocks, and also buy pure strains of Peacocks, and put them in the aquarium together, these breed with each other, and they get traded in (further diluting the gene pool). Someone buys those offspring, breeds them, trades them, and it's a never ending cycle. The fear here, eventually you may find NOTHING but hybrids in the stores, and pure strains will be next to impossible to attain, especially when you consider that fish keepers are the only ones keeping some endangered species off of the extinction list.

If you want to see guys get mad, go over to one of the Frontosa forums and mention Red Eye, Albino or Copperband, that really gets those guys worked up. :cool:

I'm on the fence. I don't like hybrids, per se, but I do appreciate some nice line bred Peacocks.

[iron]

Totally against hybrids and the entire notion. In the fish world I will only buy what I believe or know that which is pure. Or indeed is it? In our fish tanks, the enviroment is controlled and yet hybrids still seem to become reality. Lets take a glance at the wild. No one is there to feed out the mutts and to destroy them. As it was said, hybrid fish are able to breed, and breed. So now lets add to the mess, a school of hybrid fish are created naturally in Malawi. This mess of fish are with each other schooling for decades. Suddenly the hybrid is now a pure bred fish of its own making. How are we to know the difference when it is plainly known that no one knows every little fish in the lakes?
I agree to avoid this practice and to not even purchase such fish. However, my thoughts are that all of our exotic fish are potentially mutts.

[Squirrel]

Well the whole idea of breeding natural fish isn't entirely the main goal in home aquaria is it? Many fish, like bettas, are still the same pure species but LOOK totally different from wild forms and would NOT survive in the wild. Same goes for color strains in discus, angels, etc.

[JMatthew]

That would be the difference between line bred fish and hybrids

[Squirrel]

I usually classify species of fish via genus and species name, and I think hybridization could in some forms be a type of specization, which just branches into another type in a larger genus. Nomially speaking. Are hybrids classified as, for example, a cross of Genus a x Genus b = Genus ab, or = Genus c? Does that make sense...?

[jnjholding]

Well the whole idea of breeding natural fish isn't entirely the main goal in home aquaria is it? Many fish, like bettas, are still the same pure species but LOOK totally different from wild forms and would NOT survive in the wild. Same goes for color strains in discus, angels, etc.

That would be the difference between line bred fish and hybrids

Line breeding is essentially just concentrating on the color, and 'enhancing' it. Picking the best male in the bunch, and breeding him with a female. Don't add another species to the mix though, and don't try to change the color.

It actually is something that goes on in the wild, just not to the extent that it happens in the aquarium.

Think of the big clawed crabs, where the female only breeds with the male with the largest claw in the wild.

jnjholding added 1 Minutes and 16 Seconds later...

I usually classify species of fish via genus and species name, and I think hybridization could in some forms be a type of specization, which just branches into another type in a larger genus. Nomially speaking. Are hybrids classified as, for example, a cross of Genus a x Genus b = Genus ab, or = Genus c? Does that make sense...?

Not really, at least not in the 'manufactured' fish.

Do a wiki search on Parrot Fish and Flowerhorn. You'll start to notice that it's all speculation as to what fish were used to create those.

[Stickzula]

I personally am 100% against the sell or production of known hybrids. You won't see Parrot Cichlids, Flowerhorns or anything like that in our tanks.

We hardly mix Lake Malawi with Tanganyika. Do I lose business as a result? Sure. It doesn't make or break me. I'd rather educate people on the downfalls than make a quick buck off of them.

Hybrids RARELY occur in nature. When is the last time someone discovered a new type of Tropheus? Or a new type of Mbuna? Albino fish don't really occur in nature either. Nature has a way of consuming things that do not belong.

The probability of a new species developing as a result one hybrid spawn in the wild is probably worse odds than me winning mega millions for 300 million dollars.

Let's say that two fish interbreed and have a spawn of 50 fish...With the wild survival rates you'd be lucky to get 5 to adult hood. Then those would have to breed and then the offspring would have to breed and so on. It doesn't happen. Only in controlled environments(that we control) do these sort of things happen.

99% of the new species coming out of Tanganyika or Malawi or simply a result of the lakes being so big and not having the researchers present looking for them.

A Parrot Cichlid or Flowerhorn would never naturally occur. I think in the case that you knowingly have mixbred offspring euthanizing them is the best method. I may catch hell from some but as aquarists I feel it's our responsibility to provide fish with the best possible care that we can. Polluting the hobby with hybridized fish does no one any good.

Unfortunately most of these "hybrids" are created in the Asian markets and end up over here. Some people like them and some stores continue to support them and until the stores take a hard line this type of stuff will continue.

Blake I have no problem with your comment about prices because it's true. You get what you pay for.

Conversely we have africans that no one else does and the ones that do charge 2x and 3x more than we do for lesser quality fish.
:exactly:

One major problem in my experience is how readily mbuna and really most mouthbrooders will cross with similar species. In the lake there are species that occur at a single location. They may be different simply because they are separated from other populations of the same genus or they may have changed over time or both. In the wild you wouldn't see two similar species sharing the same territory for any length of time. Due to the breeding habits and structure in the wild, a breeding male from one species would not be tolerated in the territory of another. Additionally if they were to crossbreed in the wild, the fry would have to survive post release. Most likely they wouldn't survive, but if they did they would have to compete with other fish to breed. The competition in the wild is fierce, not every fish gets to breed and some die trying. Like Dane said, the chances of hybridization in the wild are not good. The chances of a hybrid line surviving and reproducing are near impossible. Nature takes care of itself, but in the closed system of the aquarium, it is our responsibility to "help" nature stay on course. If that means killing hundreds of fish, that were created because the initial responsibility of preventing hybridization was ignored, the so be it. All actions have consequences. Using hybrids as feeders is perfectly acceptable, most of any given brood would be food in the wild and the aquarium if you didn't interfere to begin with. Furthermore, there is a large industry for fish farming for the sole purpose of food. Fish are really low on the food chain, even predator fish are food for something else. Just because you put them in a closed system with no chance for survival doesn't make it wrong. All the fish that were ground up as fish meal in your commercially prepared fish food had no chance for survival, but no one is crying over that.

Now to clarify, I am NOT opposed to keeping hybrids. They can be nice to look at. I AM, however, opposed to knowingly breeding and passing hybrids on. The latter contributes to the degradation of the quality of fish available in the hobby. At some point, possibly sooner than we expect, Malawi will be closed to fishing/exports. Some locations are already under this type of conservation. This will mean that the fish available to hobbyists will be limited to whatever is being bread outside the lake. This is already a reality for many Victorian species, except it is due to extinction instead of conservation in Victoria. Here is where hybridization takes it's toll. It may not happen in our generation, but what we do now will have a lasting affect on the future.

There is another aspect of hybridization that I did not touch on and that is the "accepted" form. Just about everyone goes gaga over discus, but the truth is that most discus are hybrids. I'm not a discus expert so I can't comment to the specifics, but I will guarantee that most the beautiful color strains are not found in the wild. Angelfish are similar, take a silver and breed to a black and you get marble. Perfectly acceptable to most. There are entire groups of live bearers that are not found in nature, also accepted. Blood parrots and flowerhorn have been mentioned, some have differing views, but generally these are accepted as well. These "acceptable" hybrids have been bred consistently for decades and the hybrid offspring produces to itself consistently(i.e. a red turq discus produces red turq fry not blue diamond fry. A flowerhorn pair, regardless what color form, produces offspring that are characteristically flowerhorn not characteristically either of the two species that were crossed to get flowerhorn). This is "true" breeding when a hybrid fish with specific characteristics consistently produces offspring with the same specific characteristics. It takes many generations and consequently many years to get "true" breeding offspring out of a hybrid line. Most, if not every, hobbyist who ends up with hybrids doesn't breed the line till it produces "true". That means that the offspring will be a differing combo of the two parent's species individual characteristics which will vary from fish to fish within a particular brood. This means that the "beautiful" fish that you got as a result of a hybrid spawn will likely not reproduce offspring that look like itself. That lack of responsibility on the part of the hobbyist, in my opinion, is reason enough to stop distributing "one off" hybrids.

My main gripe here is that cichlids, specifically Malawi cichlids generally sold as "African Cichlids" have a very unique and wide variety of shapes, colors, patterns, temperaments, etc. that all occur naturally. To take two similar, but distinctly different species and hybridize them (especially if you aren't going to take the time and responsibility to produce a true line) in my opinion only muddies the individual charismatics that made the fish desirable to begin with.

I know that the distribution of hybrids is not going to stop or even lessen from my efforts. Maybe someone could be influenced in a positive way from the information contained within these threads. Hopefully both sides will present facts relating to why they have taken their point of view. This type of healthy debate is good as it allows the individual the opportunity to make a decision based on fact rather than opinion. Just because an individual feels a certain way about an issue doesn't make his point valid. Facts relating to his view do help validate it.

[Dr. Awkward]

Have you ever noticed that certain kinds of fish draw certain kinds of people? Take livebearers: the kind of person who usually likes the colorful line bred varieties are kids just starting out and friendly mom-types. Then the people who go for the wild strains are usually mild mannered, dorky enthusiasts. The killifish have to even dorkier enthusiasts who, luckily, are hellbent on preventing hybridization.

Then there are the cichlid fans, which fall into two categories: smart but sometimes overly aggressive masculine types and the not so intelligent, redneck cichlidiots, who are usually also men.

Why is that? Why do certain personalities almost always gravitate toward certain types of fish? Whatever the answer, you cichlid fans are always going to have to deal with that second type of person who inadvertently tries to ruin the hobby through ignorance and stupidity.

This different fish for different personalities idea is the most important thing I've learned from this forum over the years.

[spacefish34]

Well said,Stickzula...

[Sigmar]

STICKZULA Most what you said was true except that the different variations in Discus and Angels are hybrids, They're not, false statement entirely.

[cichlidkeeper]

There are two discus species, and they have been hybridized over time in the hobby. Not for sure if angels have been crossed, but I do know that there are different angel species, and I wouldn't doubt that they have been crossed to produce hobby strains.

[Thresher]

STICKZULA Most what you said was true except that the different variations in Discus and Angels are hybrids, They're not, false statement entirely.


How about you tell us why and explain yourself instead of just saying "no, your wrong". Remember, this is a discussion.

[jammmm]

Exactly. Sigmar, not to start an argument or anything, but you started this thread with a firm stance on "all hybrids" are bad. Stickzula and other folks have mentioned that OB peacocks, many discus, and angels are also hybrid. I've already mentioned that I have been guilty of selling hybrids in the past. But I've always stated when I sold them that they are hybrids. Those hybrids were my mistake, as a beginning hobbyist, I didn't realize that you couldn't mix peacocks. The resulting fry were my mistake and thus, I grew them out. Now, that I am a more experienced cichlid hobbyist, all the cichlids that I raise are separated in tanks so they don't interbreed. The ones that I keep in my 180 Gallon are different in color, shape, and lake origination so the chances of them interbreeding is very small. I am very glad that this thread has provided a good discussion point. What I don't really like is folks condemning those who sell hybrids (In the for sale thread by just commenting that hybrids are bad). This is one reason that I don't like to join another forum here in the DFW area. Instead of educating and providing valuable feedback, folks will post things like, "All folks who sell hybrids are sh!!" or "Hybrids are sh!!". I know that there are more civil means of trying to educate folks without sounding ignorant or a hypocrite.

[Sigmar]

Hybrids are fish from two different species. Discus that are all blue have been captured in the wild, tho rare. The colors and patterns have been done through selective breeding as Discus naturally carry all the colors you see now days. Crossing a Discus and an Angel would be a hybrid. Lets me see if I can find the article that explains it better than I can. Sidenote example Are the different races of the human species different species?

[Sigmar]

http://www.oscarfish.com/article-home/fish/155-hybrid-fish.html

Not the article I was looking for but a good one. I guess a lot depends on how much of a purist you are. This is getting interesting tho giving me a head ache :hehe:

[jammmm]

Your original post was classifying mixed peacocks (Malerie with Red Shoulder as a hybrid). Those are same specie but different genus. Are you now saying that mixing different peacocks is not considered a hybrid because they are the same species?

[JMatthew]

Jammm - do you same species, different strain? Same species name, different genus would be a different fish altogether

[jammmm]

Here is test:

Would mixing a German Red Peacock with a Rubescens Peacock be considered a hybrid?

[javam0ss]

I would think so.

[jammmm]

Jammm - do you same species, different strain? Same species name, different genus would be a different fish altogether

You are right. My mistake. All peacocks are in the same species, genus.

[JMatthew]

Here is test:

Would mixing a German Red Peacock with a Rubescens Peacock be considered a hybrid?

Scientifically speaking no - however conservation CAN scientific premise. For instance, there are several types of tigers and if one strain is about to go extinct then we do what we can do to save the strain.

[jammmm]

Both of these peacocks came from the Aulonocara sp. Stuartgranti Maleri Chipoka. They are both linebred from this main peacock. I don't know any of this stuff. I had to do some research. Thus, breeding of these two peacocks are essentially breeding from the Chipoka line and thus would make them the same fish. I am sure that there are several other peacocks that fall into the same category. Through linebreeding, we have essentially created a new strain which if left out in the wild, could take a very long time to happen. Now, looking back at my supposedly hybrid peacocks. They could have been from the same originating type of peacock.
(http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1409)

[Stickzula]

Sorry about the discus comment, guess I got my facts mixed up.

Very good jammmm! I was going to point out the fact that both those species are just line bread from the same root species, as you have stated, a. stuartgranti maleri chipoka. However, I believe that a lot of the fish labeled "German Red" are either hormoned or a hybrid of some sort. Mostly the ones that look obnoxiously bright red and/or have little or no blue in the face. The original "German Red" that was exported in the '90's looked a lot like the fish in my avatar. Grey posted a pic a while back of an "original" german red. I'll see if I can find the thread.

Perhaps this article will help settle the discussion regarding different types of hybrids. The hybrid cichlid... pet or problem (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/articles/hybrid_cichlid_pet_or_problem_pt1.php)

[jammmm]

Sorry about the discus comment, guess I got my facts mixed up.



I don't think you got your facts mixed up. Many of the discus that we have in captivity are here because of intra-species hybridization. If some discus breeder didn't do linebreeding, we wouldn't have those variants out in the wild. Same with fish like Fancy Guppies. I don't think that a fancy guppy would survive out in the wild with that extremely large tail. It would be one of the first fish to be eaten :hehe:. Yet some folks who have been blasting others for selling mixed peacocks (because they believe it is a hybrid) are guilty of the same sin by selling fish that was linebred (man made through selective breeding)

[JMatthew]

But, as already addressed - line breeding and hybridization are not the same thing.

[jammmm]

But, as already addressed - line breeding and hybridization are not the same thing.

But the lines between line breeding and bloodline/variant breeding becomes muddled and unclear when you take it down to that level. If you are a purist and believe that fish should not be different from how it is in the wild, then you have to question your acceptance of fish that were created because of line breeding. Same with fancy guppies or discus. A German Red Peacock is not a variant of a peacock, but many folks believe that it is because of line breeding. Fancy guppies are not like that in the wild, but through years of selective breeding, man has been able to create those with extremely large tails. I for one just want to mention to the hard line purist that before you slam someone who is selling a hybrid, take a step back and look to see if what you are doing is correct, and educate instead of thrashing someone for selling a hybrid.

[greeneyed]

:beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:

[Stickzula]

LOL greeneyed!

If you really think about it, line breeding is as far from hybridization as you can get. You take a single species from a single location and breed it. You then take the offspring that shows the best characteristics and breed them. To do it right you should take individuals from differing linage rather than siblings. Eventually 2nd or 3rd cousins get bred, but hopefully none from the same parents. Anyway, through the process of selecting the best fish from each "batch" and breeding it down you end up with a fish that is genetically more prone to producing favorable characteristics. Generally line breeding is done to take a characteristic that is already strong in the original fish and make it more prominent. While at the same time trying to eliminate the less desirable characteristics. An example would be the yellow lab. They are already very yellow, but even in the wild they can have barring on the flanks and even some masking and bearding on the face. Line breeding is done to eliminate the dark markings and to bring the vibrant yellow out more. It's a single species refined. Much like the red peacocks. They start as a single species that displays orange coloration and take the reddest specimen and breed it down until the line produces red coloration consistently. Hybridization would be if you took an a stuartgranti maleri chipoka and bred it to a protomelas taeniolatus or copadichromis borleyi kadango to enhance the red and blue of the original chipoka.

[jammmm]

Would me mixing a flavescent peacock with a red shoulder peacock be OK? And selling those offspring off because I wanted to have a mix of both yellow, blue, and red in my peacock.

[JMatthew]

If they are the exact same I dont see why not. I believe the difference here is will you be a responsible line-breeder. Responsible line-breeding is going to require ALOT of culling. The majority of the fry will likely comebout nothing more than muddled mess. Several may take on the genes you want. A few may look exactly like one of parents - these are the mist dangerous as they can easily be confused for a pure strain and accidentally mixed in the future thus causing problem for breeders down the road.

I would do a lot if research on line breeder before i even thought about making the attempt.

[Hay Burner]

Just a question here I'm not trying to start a fight. Why would an albino be considered a hybrid and not line bred then? Albinism is a recessive trait, as stated earlier that they do not occur in nature, I will respectfully disagree, they do not survive in nature. Now yes there are a ton of albinos available out there. That recessive trait can be bred just as easily as a desirable one.
Just one more swing at the horse.

[JMatthew]

Wouldn't be a hybrid - you are correct!

[Stickzula]

I think the question should be how responsible are you going to be with it. If you are willing to devote upwards of 10 years to it while killing, that's right KILLING, all but the breeding stock from your spawns in order to get a true breeding line then I don't see a major problem. I wouldn't do it or recommend it. The main thing that must be done is to not allow ANY of the fish to exist out of your control until the line is true. Once you get the fish to produce your yellow, red, and blue strain for every fish from every spawn then it is safe and ok to distribute them. The problem is that throughout the process, but especially initially, a hybrid offspring from your cross will look like one or the other of the original species. This fish, with hybrid genes in it, could then be mistaken for a "pure" specimen and be bred with other "pure" specimens which would be sold as pure and them bred again. The process continues and people wonder why 3% of the fish from every spawn come out looking "funky". It could contaminate an entire local market just because no one knew that they had hybrid genes in their breeding program.

Keeping unstable hybrids to yourself is the responsible and ethical thing to do. It is like a factory dumping it's waste into a nearby stream. One factory doing it isn't going to be noticeable for quite a while. Then eventually the quality of water and wildlife in the stream will degrade. Oh and I forgot to mention that everyone from the nearby town drinks from that stream. They get sick from the pollutants. The government shuts down the factory, but the waste is so embedded in the ecosystem that the wildlife never returns and the town has to locate a different water source.

Obviously it doesn't ruin other streams, but given the selfish nature of people here's the next step. The corporate office for another factory reads a news brief about the original factory and decides to do the same thing. They decide that their company and revenue is more important than the stream. Soon they convince other company's to do the same thing. It's not hurting OUR assets . . . we get what we want . . . who cares about the future implications for the stream and ecosystem . . . if I want pure water I'll just buy it from the original source . . . and so on. Propaganda is spred and dumping waste becomes an "acceptable" practice. Some oppose it, but the majority calls them "close minded" . . . "radicals" . . . "purists".

[Sigmar]

:beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse::beatdeadhorse:


Just because its been discussed many times before doesn't mean :beatdeadhorse: I'm learning something and sure others are too so open your mind and let the info flow.:hehe:

[jammmm]

I like your posts, Stickzula. You provide a strong case to your argument. Not just a simple, "Hybrids are sh!!!". I agree with your views, and no, I wouldn't be a line breeder because I wouldn't want to kill the fish that were reproduced. I just wanted to have a full discussion about all levels of hybridization; from different species down to line breeding so that we may all educate each other and possibly learn that even line breeding could potentially destroy the original line that the fish once came from. We all have our views and opinions about hybrid cichlids, and I feel that this forum have a lot more open minded folks that understand that it is up to the individual on how they want to deal with the hybrids. On some other forums, there are many folks that say "kill", "cull", or use as feeder; which I don't think is right. It is one thing to educate, but another thing to suggest an action.

[Hay Burner]

I see what you are saying, however, like stated before albinism is a recessive trait it is possessed by every living creature, it just pops up rarely. If an albino were bred to another albino of the same species it would still posses the desirable traits of the original species and their offspring will most likely have the normal traits showing. They will just have a greater chance of producing albinos, until the recessive is made dominate.
Two people with blue eyes aren't necessarily going to have children with blue eyes.

I should also restate it is up to the individual to either educate them self and also up to them to behave in an ethical manor. If it is a Hybrid let it be known. But if I like how it looks it's going in the tank I am not in this to breed fish I let nature take it's course. I know someone here has heard me say that a couple times.

[Nicholsons_Discus]

I read ever post right up to the point that someone said that discus are hybrids.....They are not. Recent DNA analysis has proven this.....It is currently a hot button with me. I just got back from the ACA where Jim and I judged the discus class. When we were trying to pick the best of division A I could not even get the other judges to look at the discus because the idiots think that discus are a man made hybrid. Pisses me off more than I can explain. The show only had 150 fish...40 of them were discus and I still could not get them to give the discus a look. I chewed on Ted Judy's arse the next morning (President of the ACA). While we are not friends per say I have known him for probably 10 -15 years. He informed me that next year would be better because they were going to split the show into ornamental and wild classes...So I asked him about turqs, red turqs, snake skins, blue diamonds, etc...and he implied that they would be in the ornamental class...I pointed out to him that all of those strains had been wild caught in the Amazon....He really did not have an answer for that...I kept talking but he pretty much tuned me out from that point forward........

That is the problem with arguing with a dumbass....they just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience...

-john

[Stickzula]

I think it is agreed that albinos occur naturally. However, they are easy targets in the wild and are generally only seen in captivity. A lot of the pink peacocks, commonly labeled as dragon blood, strawberry, crystal red, etc., are albinos, but they are also hybrids. Many of these lines have been bred true and are one of the more accepted malawi hybrids.

That is the problem with arguing with a dumbass....they just bring you down to their level and beat you with experience...

Couldn't agree more. I made a comment about discus being hybrid. I had thought that they were intra-specific hybrids. I now understand that that is false. I should have done more research before posting. I'm not sure how they can argue against them being "natural form" when there is proof that they exist in the wild. It is a discredit to the ACA. I wonder what he would say if you showed a fish and had the import and customs record for it.

[Nicholsons_Discus]

The DNA study was very interesting. The "green" discus was the only one with really any genetic difference and it was very minimal. It was determined that it was the same species that had been isolated for a period of time but not yet its own species.

-john

[Squirrel]

I expect the answers to be different here, but is the aversion to breeding/owning hybrids ethical (it's so WRONG...) commercial (It's harder to sell purebreds now) intrinsic (The captive species need to be preserved and none else should intrude) or something else?

[JMatthew]

I like your posts, Stickzula. You provide a strong case to your argument. Not just a simple, "Hybrids are sh!!!". .

Hey, I said the thing as him, just not as wordy - I'm typing in an iPhone so I have to be more concise.

[BenChod]

Whether we like it or not, we cannot stop it.
As long as we preserve the wild habitat for nature to continue it course, I really don't care one way or other (just my opinion).

[JMatthew]

Whether we like it or not, we cannot stop it.
As long as we preserve the wild habitat for nature to continue it course, I really don't care one way or other (just my opinion).

Well, if we all take that perspective then there's really nothing we can do about the wild habitats either being as they are in other countries.

[Stickzula]

LOL, if we all took that stance on everyday issues we may as well pick up our chains and shackle ourselves to the will of the of those in power.

[Squirrel]

Whether we like it or not, we cannot stop it.
As long as we preserve the wild habitat for nature to continue it course, I really don't care one way or other (just my opinion).
:exactly:
I agree. As I said, confined to private ownership, hybridization is not, in my opinion, neccesarily a problem. I definitely think a blanket "all are bad/good" doesn't apply.

[jammmm]

Hey, I said the thing as him, just not as wordy - I'm typing in an iPhone so I have to be more concise.

LOL. I hear you and understand about typing on those pesky iphones.

[iron]

[QUOTE=Dr. Awkward;269897]Then there are the cichlid fans, which fall into two categories: smart but sometimes overly aggressive masculine types and the not so intelligent, redneck cichlidiots, who are usually also men.

QUOTE]



I am kinda shocked you have seen this. In my experience I have seen many educated intelligent men and women with a great variety of ciclids. I don't know if I met a single redneck idiotic man doing these breeds. Typically, due to the complicated nature of raising cichlids, I would think that it would be just too much for an idiot. I have non cichlid fish, they are the easiest fish in all my tanks. (Just take for note, I am not offended by your assesment, I just think it is odd seeing how I've noticed the opposite.)

[dgm_x10]

There is nothing wrong with hybrids; or more accurately put "cross-breeds". A hybrid is inherently sterile despite having been born of two different species. Example: Horse (viable) + Donkey(viable) = Mule(sterile). Crossbreeding increases the bio-adaptivity of a species. The more varied the set of genes in the "gene pool", the more resilient the community of fish. In fact, this will help prevent disease, genetic disorders and other inbreeding problems. Yes, sometimes this will cause a fish to revert back to a more natural coloration, which serves as camouflage in nature, but people can simply remove those undesirable fish from the breeding population. Selective breeding is the way we obtained so many aesthetically appealing varieties in the first place. I promise you the process still works. So, by crossbreeding and selecting for traits one can create a very healthy and beautiful community.

These so called "pure" pedigrees can lead to health problems if proper care is not taken. This problem sadly is seen a lot in certain dog breeds. So, as long as the traits are selected for, crossbreeding is fine.

However, there is one rule I believe we should all follow when it comes to breeding and interbreeding fish, you cannot release any back into the wild. This can cause problems that stem from bad genetics and from disease or parasite exposure. :D

[Flapjack]

oh boy here we go again lol.... African cichlid hybrids can breed.

[jlcoop277]

oh boy here we go again lol.... African cichlid hybrids can breed.

Haha I was thinking the same thing.
I'm to lazy to go back and read all 11 pages, did this thread say that a "hybrid" was two different strains of the same species or two different species all together?
Ex: different strains of discus reproduce and make a really pretty offspring.
Is the offspring a hybrid?
Or are we talking about a Vic and a Mal making an offspring.

[JMatthew]

I believe point has always been: When natures chooses - go nature! When man chooses for nature - no, no.

[Virc003]

oh boy here we go again lol.... African cichlid hybrids can breed.

Can you or anyone explain this further? I've searched but found nothing that actually explains how these hybrids can be viable.

I'm confused because the, albeit generalized, text book definition of hybrid is "offspring that results from the mating of individuals from two different species." And the definition of species is "a population or group of populations whose members have the potential to interbreed in nature and produce viable, fertile offspring, but do not produce viable, fertile offspring with other such groups." (These definitions were copied straight out of the back of a college level biology book.) Then how is it that African cichlids break both of these rules?

I understand that there are exceptions to every rule. I've even learned about other exceptions to this rule but in plants rather than animals. In these plant exceptions, however, manipulation of genes nearly always has to be carried out in a laboratory to make the hybrids viable and fertile. Even then, the resulting hybrids van now sexually reproduce, but only with other hybrids that have been modified exactly as it had, meaning that these plants now make up an entirely new species and can't interbreed with the original parent species.

Please understand this is merely a request for information. It is by no means an attempt to argue either side.

[greeneyed]

:leghump::leghump:

About as well as I can explain it. I am no scientist, but I have seen African cichlid crossbreed. And their offspring crossbreed. I have seen a tank setup for 10 + years, and know the original inhabitants. Yet they are no longer recognizable. All fish now are a muddy brown mess.

[fishman76092]

Someone put this thread out of its misery.