Light Color Comparisons (K ratings)

[AndrewH]

These are 12" away from my white textured wall. I will add photos of each light on my 12" tall tank when the sun goes down tonight ;).

List of bulbs (in order as they appear in the first picture):
Sylvania 3500 K - FP54/835/HO
Sylvania 4100 K - FP54/841/HO/ECO
Sylvania 6000 K - FP54/860/HO/ECO
Katana 10000 K (white) - T5'54W/W10000K
Katana 10000 K (blue/actinic) - T5'54W/B10000K

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/Bulbs2.jpg

3500 K
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/3500K.jpg

4100 K
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/4100K.jpg

6000 K
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/6000K.jpg

10000 K (white)
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/10000K.jpg

10000 K (blue) - Actinic
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/Actinic.jpg


I plan to show each one on the tank individually and have the capability to show a combination of 3 together at one time.

Is there a particular combination you would like to see?

I have 1 of each tube except the 4100 K which I have two.

[AndrewH]

Here's a picture that might be a little more usefull.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/SideBySide.jpg
_____3500 K__________4100 K___________6000 K__________10000 K__________Actinic_____

[rolloffhill]

What ballast would I use to run 1 of the 48" T-5's? and are they a true 48" or shorter? I want to run one under the canopy of my 75g.

[AndrewH]

45.2" for the actual tubes. I believe the range is 45"-46" for all of the different manufacturers.

And you'd look for a T5HO or a CFL ballast that can handle 36 to 55 watts (x 2 tubes total).

http://www.unvlt.com/productLines/ap_sheets/ELFB/B254PUNV-D.pdf

http://www.lighthousesupply.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=439 ($33 each)

This ballast would allow you to run 1 or 2 T5HOs or CFLs ;)

[AndrewH]

What ballast would I use to run 1 of the 48" T-5's? and are they a true 48" or shorter? I want to run one under the canopy of my 75g.

Do you mean the 54 watt T5HO, or the 28 watt T5 (normal output)?

[rolloffhill]

Doesn't matter, it is just gonna be for visual effect for me. I have the 4x65w PC on there and 2 of the bulbs are 50/50. We like the late night Actinic lighting for our benefit so eventually I will need to replace the 50/50's with 6500k or similar, and thought about running an actinic on there for visual effect.

[AndrewH]

OIC...

Well in short, it does kinna matter.

If you're running 4 x 64W PC at 6,500 K and you put an actinic 28W T5 (normal output) you might not even notice it's there. Said another way, the 260W of 6,500 K might over power and "wash out" the 28W of actinic.

Now if you had a single 54W T5HO actinic (basically, double the normal output T5) you stand a better chance of seeing the actinic's affects on the fishes's colors.

Just a thought though as I'm not 100% sure what will happen ;)











http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/3500K.jpg 3500 K

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/4100K.jpg 4100 K

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/6000K.jpg 6000 K

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/10000K.jpg 10000 K

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/Actinic.jpg Actinic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/6000K-10000K.jpg 6000 K & 10000 K

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/Actinic-3500K.jpg 3500 K & Actinic

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/10000-Actinic.jpg 10000 K & Actinic

[kewlkatdady]

dude...
you need a weed eater...
:jerod:

j/k man, the tank is coming along nicely.

[rolloffhill]

Well, not looking for a full actinic, and when it will be on (probably 2 hours max at night) only one set of the 6500k would be on. I don't want a strait blue light, just some blue back lighting to give it an effect. It makes the plants and the fish cool looking.

Do 10k and actinic and you can see what I'm talking about.

[AndrewH]

dude...
you need a weed eater...
:jerod:

j/k man, the tank is coming along nicely.

You're 100% right :eek:

All of the large plants on the left (swords) and half of the one on the right (hygro) are about to go into the 90 ;). Since the 33 is short, it's prefect for getting plants "started" for the 90 (which is one of the reasons I got the 33 :cs:).

[AndrewH]

Do 10k and actinic and you can see what I'm talking about.

Added :D

[rolloffhill]

Thats it, now what bulb and ballast?? :D

[AndrewH]

If you're going for a single T5 (normal output) then get a cheap T8 ballast and a T5 actinic tube.

[dcacjc]

Do the actinic bulbs do anything in freshwater outside of looks?

I may have to switch mine out to get more light in my tank.

[AndrewH]

Nope, from my understanding the freshwater plants (and animals for that matter) can't use the actinic light. You can add actinic to other light for an "effect" like Skipp is talking about, but it doesn't "add" anything to the overall lighting for the plants.

[dcacjc]

is there any place locally to get T5HO bulbs (24")?

[AndrewH]

Some interesting photos :D

The text on the left of each picture indicates the color temp in Kelvin and the text on the right indicates the White Balance setting on my camera.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/DayLightSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/FluorescentSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/FluorescentHSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/10WSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/6WSideBySide-OT-1.jpg

[AndrewH]

is there any place locally to get T5HO bulbs (24")?

Locally, would have to be the LFS.

But there are several places on-line.

[dcacjc]

Do you happen to have an addy for the online sources?

[AndrewH]

Cheap 3000 K, 3500 K, and 4100 K source (http://www.1000bulbs.com/F24T5-HO-Bi-Pin-Programmed-Start-Fluorescent-Light-Bulbs/)

Still looking for higher Ks and Actinic...

[greeneyed]

1000bulbs are a good source for lighting.
And a plus is they are local.

[AndrewH]

Here's Midday (6000 K) and Actinic (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_AquariumPage~PageAlias~lighting_fluorescent_gei semann_powerchrome_t5_high_output_lamp.html)

[AndrewH]

Here's 3000 K, 4100 K and 6500 K (http://www.plantlightinghydroponics.com/t5-ho-fluorescent-lamps-c-73_257.html)

Another good site I just found (http://www.prolighting.com/t5preheatlamps.html#top)

Yet another good source (http://www.specialty-lights.com/t5ho.html)

[rolloffhill]

I've used A&T lamps in Lewisville, they carry alot of bulbs like that. I got my Icecap setup from them.

[REYREY]

now... I like the information presented on this THREAD...this is one that should be kept for archival use.... the pictures do show what diff lights and combos produce... very good SHOW people!!! :clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::c lap:


now...

on plant growth... Apart from the Actinic... the light Ks does not effect Plant Growth...because of the watts being the same for each of the lights??? OR DOES IT????

[AndrewH]

Well plant growth is an entirely different story.

The plant grow it based on PAR, which essentially is a measurement of light waves between 400 and 700nm which plants use to photosynthesize.

If you have a 3500 K light at 54W and a 10,000 K light at 54W they might have the same PAR reading (meaning the plants see them the same), but one will look red and the other one blue. It doesn't really have anything to do with the wattage, K rating, length, etc. regarding plant growth. It all comes down to PAR. Generally speaking the more wattage, the more PAR but you can have a 24W lamp that produces more PAR than a 32W lamp.

Color is almost entirely up to the end user (you). But generally speaking 4,100 K to 8,000 K bulbs tend to have the highest PAR rating. And there's very little (if any) PAR information about certain lamps.

I plan to purchase a PAR meter soon to start doing my own testing, and will post results when I get going (PAR meters are pretty pricy ;)).

[AndrewH]

Reference:
http://www.gthid.ca/images/kelvinchart.gif



Here's some more pictures I took last night that you might like. These pictures were taken 12" away from my white textured wall (like the the first few pictures of this post), and should give a good idea of which WB setting you should use when taking pictures of your tank lighting.

Day Light - WB setting
_____3500 K__________4100 K___________6000 K__________10000 K__________Actinic_____
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/DayLightSideBySide.jpg

Auto - WB setting
_____3500 K__________4100 K___________6000 K__________10000 K__________Actinic_____
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/SideBySide.jpg

Fluorescent H - WB setting
_____3500 K__________4100 K___________6000 K__________10000 K__________Actinic_____
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/FluorescentHSideBySide.jpg

Custom/6000 K set as White - WB setting
_____3500 K__________4100 K___________6000 K__________10000 K__________Actinic_____
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/6WSideBySide.jpg

Custom/10000 K set as White - WB setting
_____3500 K__________4100 K___________6000 K__________10000 K__________Actinic_____
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/10WSideBySide.jpg

[poel_19]

anyone think this might be a good sticky?

[REYREY]

x2 on the sticky...

QUESTION...

the bulbs that are sold that are ebnergy efficient... have little watts...but indicate they put out as much light as bulbs with higher wattage rating...

what is the story on this..... do plants recieve the benefit ... or are watts truly lost??

and the PAR... how do you know what ratings and the such for different types of lights???

[AndrewH]

The "energy efficient" tubes are simply lower in wattage and output (sometimes).

If you have a normal 40W T12 which puts out 2775 lumens, the 34W "Watt-Miser" (= "energy efficient" version) will output 2475 lumens. They are basically a tube designed to work with a normal output ballast while using less wattage (and outputting less lumens though they don't advertise that fact). Most people won't notice a 300 lumen difference in their kitchen or shop. The 32W T8 will output 2660 lumens and the 30W T8 "Watt-Miser" (= "energy efficient version) will output 2675 lumens. Also, some of the spiral CFL bulbs are labeled with "energy efficiant" because of the amout of energy you save over incandescent bulbs. Example: 13W spiral CFL = 60W incandescent (same output but 47W less energy). As you can see, it depends on which lamp you're talking about if they're are or are not the same output.

PAR on the other hand isn't something that's going to be a readily available stat from the manufacturers. PAR specifically relates to how much energy a particular tube/bulb outputs regarding the energy a plant is looking for to produce photosynthesis (between 400nm and 700nm on the spectrum scale). Most tubes/bulbs are designed for human illumination so the manufacturers don't care what the PAR ratings are, only the lumen output, total life (in hours), wattage consumptions, etc.

To get a PAR rating it would either have to be a tube/bulb specifically for plants (and still most manufacturers aren't providing this type of info yet), you would have to find on the net somewhere where someone has already testing the lamp in question, or you have to have a quantum meter (a.k.a. PAR meter) to measure it yourself.

I plan to purchase a quantum meter in the near future, but they're a little pricy ($320 for a cheap one and $1100-$1200 for a pro version). After I purchase one I plan to start testing as many bulbs and tubes as I can get my hands on (again, expensive if I have to purchase the tubes and fixtures to run the tubes if I don't already have them), and I also plan to setup an experiment were I test a new tube, then follow it throughout it's life to see how the PAR reading changes as it ages (to my knowledge this hasn't been done or at least documented).

[AndrewH]

Here's a nm spectrum scale for reference:

http://www.cameraguild.com/technology/images/FlourescentsC.jpghttp://serc.carleton.edu/images/quantskills/methods/e-m_spectrum.gif

A quantum meter will measure from 400nm to 700nm, though a plant canNOT use the light between 480nm and 570nm (green into yellow) because it is simply reflected off of the green leaves. Below 400nm = UV (ultraviolet = literally below violet) and above 700nm = IR (infrared = literally above red) both are outside the "visible" spectrum and to my knowledge very little is known about how plants and animals use or if they need this type of light.

[AndrewH]

Also note: the Kelvin scale and spectrum scales do NOT relate to one another and there is no "conversion" to get one from the other. And if you notice they're backwards from one another.

On a spectrum scale the lower the number the more blue, the higher the more red. On a Kelvin scale the lower the number to more red, the higher the more blue.

[tethorpe3]

Sorry to butt in....But you wont notice the difference.... I went 50/50 and couldnt be happier. On my 75g. Its a preference thing I guess. Try the 50/50.

[AndrewH]

:D Butt in all you want, your observations are welcome here.

Generally speaking this lighting comparison was "geared" towards planted tanks.

Most folks I've talked to say they love the higher Kelvin lamps (including the 50/50 and Actinic) on their cichlid tanks.

Did you put the 50/50 on a cichlid tank or is that on a planted tank?

I'm not trying to imply that a 50/50 (or actinic) wouldn't work on a planted tank, actually the plants would probably love the blue-ish light, I'm just stating/showing what the different ratings look like on my tank.

Personally, I like a mix of K ratings in the 5,000 to 10,000 range and think the blue-ish lights make the tank look a little to weird for my tastes.

I'm actually kinna curious how the plants do under 50/50 or actinic light as they prefer the blue end of the spectrum, but I suspect if that was their only source of light they would suffer (normally the manufacturers put additional chems and color on the glass to get the lamps extremely blue as in an actinic, so the light output is slightly less then say the same wattage tube in a lower K rating).

[AndrewH]

Some interesting photos :D

The text on the left of each picture indicates the color temp in Kelvin and the text on the right indicates the White Balance setting on my camera.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/DayLightSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/FluorescentSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/FluorescentHSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/10WSideBySide-OT-1.jpghttp://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks/6WSideBySide-OT-1.jpg


I completely forgot to show these combo pics :baghead:.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/6000K-10000K.jpg
(6,000 K and 10,000 K together - this is what I run on the tank in any other picture you see of the 33 gallon)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/Actinic-3500K.jpg
(3,500 K and Actinic together)

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v463/Andrew_H/fishy/Lighting%20Ks%20on%20Tank/10000-Actinic.jpg
(10,000 K and Actinic together)

[Tinyfish]

Andrew,
Have you found any T5's over 10,000k?

[AndrewH]

Yes there are companies which make some upper K T5HOs.

I'll see if I can find a link or two on the net and post 'em up.

[supersmirky]

For green plants the lighting peaks that are most important:
Chlorophyll-a: 430nm/662nm
Chlorophyll-b: 453nm/642nm
Carotenoids: 449nm/475nm
Red pigmented plants use more light in the blue area of the spectrum.


http://i138.photobucket.com/albums/q261/newt_album/chlorophyll.jpg

Another more important thing to look for vs color temperature is actually the CRI - Higher the better.

CRI or Color Rendering Index is an indication of how close the light is to daylight (full spectrum) on a scale from 0 to 100 with respect to how it makes objects appear. Two bulbs with the same Kelvin temperature but different CRI ratings can produce very different appearances. Compare a 5000K that has an 80-something CRI with a 5000K that has a 90-something CRI. The 80 CRI bulb is very bright, but it renders greens with a distinct yellow cast. The 90 CRI bulb is dim, but it renders rich colors across the whole spectrum.

That being said, Andrew - Where do you go for your T5ho bulbs? I haven't found a reasonable place yet.

[AndrewH]

Andrew,
Have you found any T5's over 10,000k?

54W T5HO - $22 (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem%7Ecategory%7ECurrent_USA_48_Inch_54W_T 5_HO_10K_Daylight_Slimpaq_Bulb_Freshwater_Aquarium _Supplies_Lighting_Light_Bulbs_T5_Fluorescent%7Eve ndor%7ECurrent_USA%7ESearchStr%7E%7Eaction%7Eview% 7EidProduct%7ECU02134%7EidCategory%7EFWLTBUT5.html )

54W T5HO - $25 (http://www.marinedepot.com/ps_ViewItem.aspx?action=view&idProduct=GL2111&idCategory=FILTBUT5&category=T5_Fluorescent-Light_Bulbs-Lighting-Saltwater_Aquarium_Supplies&vendor=&child=GL2115)

[AndrewH]

Andrew,
Have you found any T5's over 10,000k?

For green plants the lighting peaks that are most important:
Chlorophyll-a: 430nm/662nm
Chlorophyll-b: 453nm/642nm
Carotenoids: 449nm/475nm
Red pigmented plants use more light in the blue area of the spectrum.

Another more important thing to look for vs color temperature is actually the CRI - Higher the better.

CRI or Color Rendering Index is an indication of how close the light is to daylight (full spectrum) on a scale from 0 to 100 with respect to how it makes objects appear. Two bulbs with the same Kelvin temperature but different CRI ratings can produce very different appearances. Compare a 5000K that has an 80-something CRI with a 5000K that has a 90-something CRI. The 80 CRI bulb is very bright, but it renders greens with a distinct yellow cast. The 90 CRI bulb is dim, but it renders rich colors across the whole spectrum.

That being said, Andrew - Where do you go for your T5ho bulbs? I haven't found a reasonable place yet.

All the bulbs I have either came with the fixtures when I bought them (new), or they were free samples :D... good to be in the lighting industry :D.

[supersmirky]

They have some over 10k at reefgeek.com too

http://www.reefgeek.com/lighting/T5_Fluorescent/Bulbs/54W_12000K_Aquablue_Special_T5_HO_Fluorescent_by_A TI

Andrew - yes I agree. Lights are absolutely ridiculously expensive

[Tinyfish]

I am sorry to ask this since you have posted such informational threads, its just that I get lost in long threads.

I do not think I understand if there is a relationship between CRI nm, lumens and the K value.

It seems to me there are at least two things hobbists look for in their aquariums. 1) How does the light make things look and 2) What are the needs of organisms like plants and fish.

To me the fact that different organisms may need different light only complicates the choices. For freshwater plants at least there seems to be a dividing line between what is a high light vs. a low light plant. Are the fish affected at all? And then there is saltwater :confused:.

Please let me know which I got right or wrong.
Test: CRI is the color rendition index which measures against daylight?
nm is a color wavelength?
lumens is a measure of light output?
K value is a measure of output? I am not sure what kind.
watts is a measure of energy output?
volts is a measure of input? (I can never remember the plumbing association between size of pipe, pressure, flow to electricity)
And I am not sure what else.

[AndrewH]

Well here's the main problems: (and ask all the questions you want... that's exactly why we created these forums :D).

The sunlight has some "special" properties as I'm sure you know.

First, the sun is hitting the earth with an estimated 1000 watts of power per square meter. That translates into a crap load of energy, which we have difficulty mimicking.

Second, the sun's light has a spectrum and nm wavelengths which exceed anything we can match with a single artificial light source.

Most measurements for light are based on "how the light interacts with the human eye", so some of these values don't have much use outside lighting a space/area for human illumination use.

Take CRI and Lumens for example. CRI is basically how well an artifice light source mimics the colors you would normally see if you look at the same object (at the same distance, and same air temperatures, etc. etc.) in natural sunlight. Now the problem with using these as "hard facts" is the way a human eye sees light vs how other organisms use light.

Same thing with lumens. Lumens are the measure of light intensity as seen by the human eye. Since the human eye is more sensitive to green wavelengths and less sensitive to blue and red wavelengths, you can have two light bulbs sitting side by side and both be identical in wattage, length etc, but one source has more green than the other. Then that one will have a higher lumen rating though the amount of "light energy" coming out of both lamps is the same.

The K rating (Kelvin but there is no degree symbol because it's not a measurement of temperature but of energy/heat level) is a way to measure what "color" the light is as it appears to the human eye. Basically, there are "black bodies" (collection of dust and gasses) in deep space which emit a specific color of light depending on their energy/heat level. If the black body has a rating of 3500 on the Kelvin scale it will emit a light with a red-ish/yellow-ish color. If it has a rating of 10,000 on the Kelvin scale it will emit light that appears blue, etc.

Watts are a measurement of energy consumed. Watts = Volts x Amps ;)

Volts are a measure of electrical potential.

Amps is a measure of electrons passing through a point in one second intervals.

Compared to a water hose: volts = pressure of the water where amps = amount of water (gallons per hour).

[AndrewH]

How does that translate into lighting an aquarium?

Simple... the organisms within the aquarium do not have the same limitations or needs as the human eye. Plants for example can't use much of the green and yellow light spectrum because those colors are reflected off the green leaf surfaces while the red and blue spectrum are most important.

Basing all/most of the measurements we give lighting on "how the human eye interprets" really limits the alternative uses for those measurements.

10,000 lumens doesn't mean anything to a plant vs. 5,000 lumens. Lumens are based on the green spectrum which green plants can barely use. The plant might see the light sources the exact same, or even be able to use more of the 5,000 lumens' source more than the 10,000 lumens' source because of the spectrum (spectrum btw is referring to the nm scale for lighting).

Same thing with CRI... bulbs with 5,000 K rating or higher rarely have a CRI listed because it is so low (talking 20-30 if you're lucky) and 10,000 K and above or 2,000 K and below have a 0 CRI rating. Why? Because it's based on how the human eye interrupts the light bouncing off the objects. 10,000 K (blue) and 2,000 K (red) light is the worst for our vision, so they will naturally have a lower CRI. This is the reason night vision was originally developed in green ;)

The one measurement that might be remotely associated with an aquarium is PAR, which is the measurement of the light in only the red and blue spectrum ignoring the other colors.

To humans a "plant specifically" built bulb would look really dim and uncomfortable to our eyes, while a "human specifically" built bulb will appear the same way to a plant.

Most bulb manufacturers do not measure their product's PAR rating because 99 times out of 100 the bulbs is being built for human use and the ratio for red/blue spectrum to green is around 10:1 (meaning there will normally be 10 times more green than red/blue so a low PAR rating). So if you want to measure PAR you have to buy a PAR meter (a.k.a. Quantum Meter) @ $200-$300 for a nice amateur model, to $1500+ for a professional model.